3.3 quick updates & race changes

There was another minor update to the 3.3 patch notes. There’s nothing super shocking in the notes directly related to druids. The only relevant druid note is a compromise on the predatory strikes change:

  • Predatory Strikes: The Predatory Swiftness buff from this talent now has an 8-second duration.

The last version was 5 seconds. They didn’t revert the whole nerf, but this gives you a little more wiggle room to use your instant cyclone/heal spell. This should make PvP ferals at least a little less freaked out.

They also released the paid race change, which doesn’t mean anything to druids right now, since we only have one race per faction. We can’t change to races where our class isn’t available. Spending $25 just to change your race (on the same server!) seems like a pretty big waste of money, IMO, however it comes with a “re-customization and name change”, so I suppose that is worth it to some people. I think playing a druid as my main just makes this less appealing until at least the new races come out in Cataclysm where we might eventually get access to the new race/class combos.

I’ll get into the new LF Group & LF Raid system some time before 3.3 goes live. Since I don’t do PUGs, it’s not something that particularly means that much to me at the moment, and it’s still really in flux and subject to change. I can see how exciting this will be for a lot of my friends, and a lot of my blog readers. I don’t expect this to hit the live servers for another month or so, and it may undergo a lot of changes between now and then.

One more thing from the notes that bugs me A LOT:

  • Need Before Greed will now recognize gear appropriate for a class in three ways: the class must be able to equip the item, pure melee will be unable to roll on spell power items, and classes are limited to their dominant armor type (ex. paladins for plate). All items will still be available via Greed rolls as well as the new Disenchant option should no member be able to use the item.

COMBINED WITH:

  • Group Disenchanting Option: In addition to rolling Need or Greed on items, players now have the option to elect for an item to be disenchanted. Disenchant works exactly like Greed except if a player wins the Greed roll, they will receive the disenchanted materials instead. Players who choose Need will always win the item and will always beat those that choose Greed or Disenchant.

This means that a moonkin who wants a cloth piece has to roll “greed” on it, but anyone else can roll “disenchant” and beat the moonkin on the roll, receiving enchanting materials and preventing the moonkin from being able to receive that “greed”  item. If people are going to be limited to armor type (so that moonkin can’t “need” cloth), then they need to be able to have Greed ranked higher in priority than Disenchant.

For moonkin, “best in slot” is cloth 50% (or more!) of the time, especially given limited access to +hit spell leather items. While I normally don’t steal things from cloth wearers, this just reinforces the no cloth for moonkin stereotype WITHOUT there always being good moonkin leather itemization to choose from that is as good as the cloth pieces. I don’t know if there’s ever been a point where all my moonkin gear was ever full leather… So, this particular limitation placed on the system seems like it is going to cause the playerbase a LOT of problems at some point in the future (OOPS I clicked disenchant and now you can’t have the bracers you ran this instance for 20 times. Better luck the next 20!).

Yes, we can still get & equip the item if we win a “greed” roll, but it won’t “need” to us, and people rolling for Disenchanting has equal weight to a “greed roll” under the same system where I need that cloth piece for my main set. I guess this limitation in PUGs is supposed to help prevent stealing & ninja-looting, since there’s no social pressure to pass to other people or do the right thing, but that also means they’re going to be DE’ing cloth that I need sometimes. I can see why the limitations on need/greed would be in place, but it can still bug me, because equal weighting for DE & Greed while ALSO having limitations on selecting Need for cloth gear is just going to cause problems for all sorts of PUG moonkin who are going to see the items they want to wear disenchanted…

UPDATE: GC commented a little bit in a post on the healing forums

24 Comments

  1. Posted October 28, 2009 at 3:37 am | Permalink

    Lis,

    I agree with you. I really really hope (tho I don’t see it happening in 3.3) that they tweak mechanics to make non-proper-armor-type gear less desirable than regular gear. (Maybe this isn’t great for restokin, who benefit from being able to double-dip, but ferals get screwed by hunters/enh shammies grabbing leather, so “shrug”).

  2. Odem
    Posted October 28, 2009 at 4:28 am | Permalink

    Just clarifying, this new looting sytem(w/ preference given to a players highest armour proficiency)is ONLY active when a party leader selects the ‘Need before Greed’ setting while in any group, yes?

    I completely agree that this just stiffs moonkins, but I have to wonder, does anyone actually use ‘Need before Greed’ anymore? I don’t Pve a great deal these days, or sparingly and just for kicks when i do, but it strikes me that since the middle of BC when i rolled my druid, I don’t think i’ve ever been in a group using anything but ML or the default group loot setting.

    I pretty much forgot need before greed was there. This may well be a server specific thing for me or others.

    Sadly, I think anything that is going to attempt to curb bad looting behaviour is only going to be riddled with further issues. Nothing turns me off this game more than loot drama.

  3. Trazer
    Posted October 28, 2009 at 4:30 am | Permalink

    Oh, that is no good.

    Not being able to Need items you cannot equip, will be fine.
    Roll DE and get the mats when everyone else passes, just as fine.

    And to be honest, this seems so obvious to me, that I cannot comprehend why Blizz would implement nothing else.

  4. Posted October 28, 2009 at 8:40 am | Permalink

    I’m pretty sure that the patch notes said Nb4G was going to be the ONLY mechanism available for cross-server PUGs…

  5. Erdluf
    Posted October 28, 2009 at 8:42 am | Permalink

    Odem, for cross-server pugs, Need before Greed will be the only looting option.

    I can see why they don’t give priority to non-dominant armor. A DK enchanter could beat everyone who was doing greed or DE rolls, and still get to DE.

    Perhaps if a Druid Needs on cloth they could automatically lose to the the cloth wearer who needs, but if the Druid wins, the item could get a tag that prevents it from being sold or DE’d in the future?

    I suppose if I go into ToC5, I could promise that if I win “Gaze of the Unknown”, I’ll pay 50g to everyone who did not Greed/DE the item (or I’ll pay 100g to the squishy who needs it and trades it to me).

    It’s not clear to me whether the cross-realm trades can include gold.

  6. Lissanna
    Posted October 28, 2009 at 8:57 am | Permalink

    The new PUG loot system really effects everyone, because now you are also going to have to “need” on off-set gear because otherwise your off-set gear is getting DE’d.

  7. Joshua Tompkins
    Posted October 28, 2009 at 9:28 am | Permalink

    The way I’ve heard Need before Greed described is that the roll priority goes like this:

    Need -> Greed -> DE

    So that if a Moonkin rolls Greed on a cloth piece he’ll get it before anyone that rolled DE.

  8. Katjia
    Posted October 28, 2009 at 10:00 am | Permalink

    even if greed was weighted above DE we’d be stuck rolling ro mainset against people who want the items for offset or even just vendor gold.

    Locking people out of a potentially very valid ‘need’ roll is plain silly

  9. Posted October 28, 2009 at 10:09 am | Permalink

    I’m assuming that you get the disenchant option whether or not you actually have an enchanter in the group?

  10. James
    Posted October 28, 2009 at 10:57 am | Permalink

    I don’t think it means that moonkins can’t roll need on cloth. I just think it means that if say a mage and a moonkin both roll need the mage will get it regardless of the numbers.

  11. Posted October 28, 2009 at 11:24 am | Permalink

    I really think what needs to happen is GC or one of the other Blues need to post some examples. The patch notes wording is just vague enough that several decision trees could be constructed when parsing the words.

    This would also greatly help the testers on the test realm decide if it is working as intended.

  12. mushu
    Posted October 28, 2009 at 1:15 pm | Permalink

    I already think this change sucks. We don’t need more limitations to how we play the game, it feels like Blizz has control issues. Doing this will prevent my boomy from getting off-set items, it will prevent me from getting the “Needy” achieve (which is hard enough to get as it is), and won’t even come close to removing the loot drama issue that Blizz is trying to fix. Guess we won’t be able to trade items after the run either, since either they’ll be DE’d automatically or if not, we’ll all be transported to various parts of the world when we leave the instance anyway! Even that new “feature” is a PITA since it requires that we tell the system *every time* if we want to be transported back or not. They really need to clarify the looting rlues now, and be very precise about it so we know what to expect, otherwise I won’t even bother trying to use their vaunted new cross-realm LFG system. It puts too much power into the hands of the PUG leader IMO. :(

  13. Lissanna
    Posted October 28, 2009 at 3:34 pm | Permalink

    @Lavata – I was hoping that by posting about it on the Damage Dealing forums, the players could try to get the developers to actually talk to us about how the system is going to work, but instead of opening discussions about it, they are just locking & deleting those threads. (even when the threads aren’t trolling or posting in all caps).

    There have been a couple posts about the loot system on the PTR forum, but even then it’s been vague & not entirely helpful info.

  14. Posted October 28, 2009 at 5:36 pm | Permalink

    I LOVE the idea of having my mats automatically disenchanted for me…. but I agree that it’s going to end in heartbreak for a lot of people who need to roll on lesser armor types.

    What if the person beside you could have used it as an upgrade, but were forced to roll Greed? That would make me sad. That’s why I love the new system where you can trade BOP items within the group – because if someone makes a mistake, you can fix it. There have been times where I’ve not rolled on something (cloth +hit), it’s gone to the enchanter ready to be disenchanted, and I’ve realised it would be a good upgrade for me. No problem, here you go.

    But with the new system it seems like there’s no second chances – if you win DE, the mats land in your bag and the deed is done. If someone else realises they wanted the item, or if they had no chance to roll Need, too bad.

    I don’t know how this can be fixed. It seems as though they’ve given us a perk and slapped on a bigger problem at the same time. Honestly, how much of an issue currently is it that people take items below their armor class? Enough to cause huge issues?

    Because it seems as though this new, created issue is far, far more disruptive than the occasional rogue thinking it would be funny to take that spellpower dress… or a caster crying over a boomkin taking cloth caster gear.

    I say remove the Need restrictions. If it’s an upgrade, and you can use the armor type, roll Need. If you want to sell the item, Greed/DE if you want to sell it or get the mats.

    This “solution” is going to hinder more than help.

  15. Tiger
    Posted October 28, 2009 at 6:02 pm | Permalink

    I am also concerned by the enforced Need-before-Greed looting system. Just having 3 options (Need, Greed and DE) doesn’t seem to cover all the possibilities.

    E.g. Resto/Balance Druids should be able to ‘need’ cloth items if no other Cloth wearer needs them, rather than them getting sharded.

    My suggestion would be to add a second Need option, so you’d have Need-Main, Need-Off, Greed and DE. Make Need-Main disabled if the armor is not your primary armor type (E.g. Cloth when you’re playing a Druid), but still allow Need-Off to used by players who can still use the item and benefit from it.

    @Lavata, I’d also like to second that seeing some concrete examples on how the system will work in different situations would help a lot.

  16. Jeremy
    Posted October 28, 2009 at 11:05 pm | Permalink

    Actually greed is a higher priority than d/e on the PTR right now. It also takes all 5 people to click on d/e so that the item is d/ed. Worst case scenario you have a clothy need the item for you and trade it to you.

  17. Posted October 29, 2009 at 2:26 am | Permalink

    You can’t trade items in the cross-server pugs, unfortunately. That’s why the DE option was developed – because enchanters aren’t able to trade mats to people who roll for them.

    So, if you receive an item and someone else actually needs it as an upgrade or for offspec – tough – you won’t be able to hand it to them (in a cross-server pug).

  18. Noctune
    Posted October 29, 2009 at 9:33 am | Permalink

    This change suck as its dscribed by GhostCrawler

    Need –> (Greed OR DE ) this is huge impact on the game due to the bad itimization on alot of gear.

    Shaman & Paladins wearing Cloth
    Warrior DPS & Hunters wearing leather boots (Best in slot)
    and the list can go on.

    there is just one thing that can kill a great MMO and thats the game itself when they patch it.

    considering im playing Shaman (Restro & Elemental) and a Druid (Bear tank & Moonkin) yes im wearing some odd pieces of cloth on my castergear i prefere the right armour types but i whould enjoy pugging even less to see stuff gets DE

    DE == you robbed someone of an upgrade.

    even if its just a 10% chance of that person will ever use the item i whould give him the item above taking it my self.

    best thing whould have a fourth option

    just add the new stuff to the new button and leave the old Need that way, ofc the new buutton should have priority over normal Need, i don’t get to mess with losing gear to DE this will be frequent with the new changes.

    this will only create more loot drama DE mats will drop in price, ppl will Need on class item just to get extra gold. *shrugg* it only makes more problems.

  19. Shoveldug
    Posted October 29, 2009 at 2:48 pm | Permalink

    Lissanna-

    I’m not sure why _you_ are worried.
    When is the last time you had to pug anything?

    It’s for the poor slobs in nonraiding guilds that this matters. And well, I’ll give it a shot, and I’m sure I’ll get that incentive pet before ya.

  20. Lissanna
    Posted October 29, 2009 at 3:36 pm | Permalink

    Shovel, I’ve run a lot of PUGs in my history of playing the game. Most of what I did in Vanilla WOW was running PUGs. Just because I’m too busy to run them & don’t need gear from the 5-man dungeons right this minute doesn’t mean it isn’t important to me. I also spend a lot of time here talking about things that impact my readers & not necessarily just me directly….

  21. Arch
    Posted November 3, 2009 at 1:41 pm | Permalink

    You really should edit your post there, because greed, and greed for DE do NOT have equal weighting, and people are really not reading the comments that mention this. If 1 druid greeds a cloth upgrade, and the other 4 greed for DE, the druid will win it.

  22. Lissanna
    Posted November 3, 2009 at 5:56 pm | Permalink

    Arch, according to all the Blizzard feedback at this point, the system was changed to give Greed and DE equal weighting, so that the enchanter in the group couldn’t roll Greed on it just to prevent other people from having a chance at getting the shard if they chose DE. So, right now, if the druid rolled greed & everyone else rolled DE, it’s NOT supposed to automatically go to the person who chose greed in the new 3.3 system.

  23. Posted November 3, 2009 at 9:03 pm | Permalink

    “Group Disenchanting Option: In addition to rolling Need or Greed on items, players now have the option to elect for an item to be disenchanted if an enchanter of the appropriate skill level is in the group. Disenchant works exactly like Greed except if a player wins the Greed roll, they will receive the disenchanted materials instead. Players who choose Need will always win the item and will always beat those that choose Greed or Disenchant. ”

    The notes say Greed=DE.

    That is what we have been told to date.

  24. oneiroi
    Posted December 13, 2009 at 12:42 pm | Permalink

    I’m getting really frustrated with these rules for rolling.

    I have a balance/resto dual spec, and I’m trying to get out of my blues and into purples, and I’ll be in a group with no cloth wearer, everyone chooses disenchant and then it still won’t let me roll need.

    ugh.