Why lead a 25-man raid in Cata?

So, today Blizzard dropped a bombshell of changes to the raiding system in Cataclysm. As an officer in a 25-man raiding guild, I agree with all of them but one: 10-man raids and 25-man raids are going to share the same Raid ID lockout.

I don’t care about what kind of loot they drop. I don’t care about how much gold/badges they’ll drop. There will NOT be enough of a difference & reward for officers having to recruit & organize people for the majority of guilds who raid 25-mans right now.  The penalty of being locked out of 10-mans is just too steep of a price to pay for this in return:

We of course recognize the logistical realities of organizing larger groups of people, so while the loot quality will not change, 25-player versions will drop a higher quantity of loot per player (items, but also badges, and even gold), making it a more efficient route if you’re able to gather the people. The raid designers are designing encounters with these changes in mind, and the class designers are making class changes to help make 10-person groups easier to build. Running 25-player raids will be a bit more lucrative, as should be expected, but if for a week or two you need to do 10s because half the guild is away on vacation, you can do that and not suffer a dramatic loss to your ability to get the items you want.

My response to this is quite possibly the only time I want to respond with irrational curse words: FUCK THAT SHIT. With 5 bosses and 10 players, at 2 item drops per boss, each person is likely to come out with at least one piece of loot. With 5 bosses and 25 players, it would take 5 drops per boss to hit that same person-to-drop ratio. So, they would need to be at 6 items or more for the 25-player run to be slightly above the person-to-boss loot drop ratio, but that is unlikely to even be a noticeable difference. Even at 6 items dropping per boss, it is still NOT WORTH IT to sustain a 25-man raiding guild.

They are vastly underestimating the logistical realities of the amount of time that officers put into running a 25-man raiding guild. With 10′s & 25′s dropping the same rewards, the players we would be recruiting from may find that the 10′s offer them better rewards for their time commitment overall, and thus will make it even harder for the people who run 25′s to recruit. Given how impossible recruitment is right now, even with 25′s having better rewards, I’m going to personally refuse to spend 8 to 10 hours a day recruiting to put together a 25-man raiding group in Cataclysm, to the point where the very thought of it makes me want to cry and curl up into a ball on the floor. I don’t like being in a 10-man group as much as I enjoy 25-man raiding. I like the big group feel, above any other type of reward. However, most guilds will find that without heavy recruitment, they will end up not having the players to run a 25-man raid week after week after week, and may just dissolve slowly over time into a 10-man raiding guild, even if they start out with high hopes. I may just find playing the game in Cataclysm to not be worth it for me at all, since what I love about the game is large-scale  raiding, the way that we had 40-mans back before Burning Crusade. Erosion of the 25-man raiding reward structure, and the inability to run both 10′s & 25′s on the same character may be enough to make me consider not to continue on in playing the game, in a way that absolutely no other change in the game ever has. I could handle having both 10 & 25-man versions. I handled the overall dumbing-down of raiding. I may not be able to handle the lack of reward for putting together a larger raiding guild, and that reward in Cataclysm should come from the ability to run both 10′s & 25′s even if they offer identical rewards.

This new experiment is going to fail for me, because raiding guild officers are going to be tired & burnt-out by trying to run a 25-man raiding guild, and I’ve never been happy with just 10-man raids. In Conspiracy, I have worked extremely hard to get us back into 25-man raids, because I perceived the reward to be worth the time & energy.  Right now, even with 25-man raiding offering more rewards, many of these bigger guilds are falling apart left & right, or barely struggling to hold on. Why should we even bother to fight & struggle if there is going to be an easier way out that provides basically identical reward as the hard way?

The solution I propose is to continue to allow 10′s & 25′s to be on different lockouts, so that 25-man raiding guilds can do both. At that point, they can still drop exactly identical rewards, with everything else they have set in place with the changes. This isn’t about item-level of gear. It’s about choice & flexibility of being able to run both a 10-man & 25-man on the same character, and about 25-man raiding guild officers being PUNISHED by not having the option of additional 10-man progression. The officers of 25-man raiding guilds are going to be disproportionately punished, without any of the rewards in return that they currently receive. Just being able to run both gives 25-man raiding guilds the ability to better survive, because unequal progression within the size of their raid won’t prevent them from having further boss progression overall.

If people want to run only 10′s or only 25′s, it would give them that choice & flexibility, BUT it wouldn’t completely neuter the guilds who sustain their numbers by running BOTH sized dungeons. You can’t make the raid lockout AND the rewards basically identical, and require one to be led by someone with endless hours to recruit and organize their group (while the other takes dramatically less organization, recruitment, and people-management). A couple badges or a few extra gold won’t make up for the pain & suffering that 25-man guild officers are going to endure by trying to hold together up to three times as many raiders to sustain their larger & not as rewarding raids. Our 25-man raid progresses slower (ie. kills fewer bosses) than our 25-man raid group does, and this is true for a lot of raiding guilds who do both. Why should we pick the raid size where we progress slower, have a harder time filling the group, and still have to work so much harder?

Blizzard can’t offer cake or death, and expect guild officers to choose death. One of the many benefits of guilds that run both 10′s & 25′s is that you get the experience of killing that boss multiple times in a week, you gear up faster, and you end up having more stuff to do (ie. people who want to raid more often in a week can do so on the same character). Being locked into 1 raid ID for a raid that may take an hour to clear once you’ve learned all the bosses is going to lead to long, drawn out periods of time with nothing to do. It already happened in WotLK, and it’s going to be twice as bad with half as much stuff to do. Just splitting a 10-boss raid into two 5-boss raids won’t fix the lack of content problem they are going to create by merging lockout timers. They may have to switch to a 4 day lockout timer for their raids instead of a 7 day lockout timer, so that people can clear the same content more than once a week (though that lockout timer would also cause scheduling nightmares). In the end, I predict that the 25-man guilds are going to largely be full of either bored or frustrated members, and the officers won’t be able to recruit to deal with the attrition in their guilds (as their members find out that choosing Cake 10-mans is more rewarding to them), and for all but the most cutting-edge (ie. top 10% of 25-man guilds today), the work is NOT going to be worth how little reward there will be for all that energy.

So, it seems that Blizzard’s goal is to kill 25-man raiding by killing off people willing to lead 25-man raiding guilds. It sucks for people who actually enjoyed the challenge of trying to put together those larger raid groups, and I hope some still survive. However, the reward to punishment ratio is likely going to make it too hard for people like me to keep 25-man raids going. I just don’t have the time for raid recruitment to be a full time job through all of Cataclysm.  Blizzard needs to re-think some of these decisions if they want to make 25-man raiding guilds worth the work, because under their new plan, most 25-man guild officers will find running one 10-man group to be much more rewarding, even if we’ll miss the larger 25-man runs and the history of what raiding used to be before Blizzard decided to cut 25-mans off at their knees.

I could be wrong, but my skill has always been to predict what are Blizzard’s good & bad ideas, with high accuracy of results. I’m usually also the one who comes out more level-headed, thinking that the world is going to be all puppies & rainbows. This is one place, however, where my eternal optimism has totally broken down, and I can’t see past the big “DOOM & GLOOM” sign in our future.

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91 Comments

  1. Chi
    Posted April 27, 2010 at 10:30 am | Permalink

    I’m sorry if my post sounds bit over reacted, but i failed to see the point to lockout both raids if they offer same lev gears.

    I understand there are people who feels burned out by MUST do both raids, but there are also people who enjoys doing more raid.

    My problem is not with they are going to provide both raids with same lev gears, as that will help people to gear up more fairly, and won’t be forced to attended both raids.

    What annoyed me is that they don’t have to make 10 and 25 share the same lockout. If Blizz can offer the player who don’t want to play 2 raids by providing the same lev gears, why can’t they give people who actually want to have 2 raids a choice too?

  2. Samantha
    Posted April 27, 2010 at 12:15 pm | Permalink

    FUCK THAT SHIT. :-D

  3. Railena
    Posted April 27, 2010 at 1:25 pm | Permalink

    The problem with allowing you to have access to both the 10 & 25 man versions of a raid once the gear is the same is that eccentually you are getting two shots at getting the same gear in the same week.

    Right now, you are rewarded with better gear by killing the “harder” boss with more people, but once the changes are made to make the “difficulty about the same” then you are basically getting two trys at the same boss for the same gear in the same week. This leads to gearing just as quickly or even faster than people are already able to do in current content.

    To me, it seems the Dev’s are trying to close the gap between gear levels and also the gap between players who are unable to do 25m content and make it more focused on your GROUPS rewards, not the individual. The changes coming to guild achievements already point to this.

    There is still more reward to running 25m versions of the instance, faster gearing, more badges/points/emblems/whatever, and gold. I highly doubt that all 25m raids will disolve as there are still people who WANT the experience you get from those types of raids, along with the gear. If it is feared that 25m raid teams are going to fall apart simply because of this change, then they were already destined to fall apart before it was even announced.

    Now, my caveat to this would be that yes, it is a bit unfair for say a guild who raids 25ms and on one night of their raid they don’t have all ppl show and now they will be unable to run the raid in the 10m version. BUT – with that, it has already been elluded to, that there will be several SHORT raids, designed to be done in ONE night instead of several nights of progression. The 25m raid that can’t meet the required people online to run will have to adapt to shifiting focus to a different raid on the nights the roster is not full. This actually will promote people raiding WITH THE GUILD instead of going and pugging out the raids they do now. Again this leading to the TEAM/GUILD rewards and achievements instead of just selflish little o’l-me style we have now.

  4. paperclip
    Posted April 27, 2010 at 1:40 pm | Permalink

    I think Nimizar (and Hana earlier) have a resonable idea. If the goal of the lockout is to gate gear improvement rate, then remove the lockout altogether, but only allow you gear on the first kill, or downgrade gear on later kills. This is the same mechanic they use for randoms. It also matches the annouced holiday boss changes.

    I like the apparent intent behind the raid change though. It is in line with the leveling in battle ground change in that it allows people to choose what they find is fun. The benefit is that people who choose the same path as you (as others have said, a lot of people find the epic feel of larger raids more fun) will be there because it is more fun.

  5. Posted April 27, 2010 at 4:16 pm | Permalink

    Honestly who cares how many shots you get at gear a week. I sure as hell don’t. I find the 1 boss per character per week to be stupid.

    I don’t care how fast people progress through content. Then again I also don’t have the keep up with the Jones’s issue either. I guess I am one of the rare players that play for my own reason on my own terms. It is a shame most people can’t adopt that attitude.

    I say let people raid as little or as much as they want on any number of toons that they want. The logistical nightmare actually comes from the shitty Raid ID system that is in place. That is the real thing that ends up killing guilds.

  6. Wenike
    Posted April 27, 2010 at 5:25 pm | Permalink

    @Railena

    Exactly, PUGging is going to be dead in Cataclysm. All hail losing the bad people! Except, what about the people who are unguilded or who are in casual guilds with friends but PUG to keep up with gear (because they like to raid while the friends don’t). What about us?

  7. Nimizar
    Posted April 27, 2010 at 6:25 pm | Permalink

    @Lavata: that’s what I’ve generally seen in the complaints about this. People are actually mostly upset about the way raid lockouts work, and have just been working around them with the 10/25 split.

    That said, even without changing the raid lockout system, I think there is a fair chance that more casual guilds will actually have 4 raids to choose from each week (once the second raid tier comes out):

    - 2 current tier raids (normal mode)
    - 2 previous tier raids (hard mode)

    During the first tier, hopefully heroics will be enough to fill in the “previous tier raid” gap. (although it is possible that even ICC hard modes may still offer good enough gear to keep people interested at that point).

    Guilds that do hard modes from the get go will obviously have more limited raiding options under that system, but I doubt Blizz would *ever* be able to release enough raid content to keep those guilds completely happy (and those guilds already face the task of steamrolling something they overgear significantly when they take on 10 man raids in Wrath).

  8. Nimizar
    Posted April 27, 2010 at 6:35 pm | Permalink

    Regarding rate limits on loot acquisition:

    Blizz have been at this for a while now, and they have figured out that yes, they *do* need to limit the rate at which people can acquire gear. They *want* to keep the highly profitable full-time worker demographic, and those people get annoyed when the fastest ways to acquire gear involve treating WoW like a second job. Blizz also know that excessive levels of play time in the near term almost always lead to burnout in the long run, and they make far more money from someone who plays 5 hours a week for a year than they do from someone who compresses those 260 hours into 3 months and then burns out and stops playing.

    It’s therefore in Blizzard’s interest to make sure that beyond a certain time investment (to pluck a number out of the air, say 12 hours a week) investing additional time won’t get you your gear any faster. This limits the advantage that additional spare time can give someone, allowing more people to feel they can stay competitive, or at least won’t be *too* far behind the curve.

    People that do have that extra spare time can then devote it to other things, such as alts, pursuing both PvE and PvP goals, collecting achievements, making gold, or (*gasp*) doing something other than play WoW :)

  9. Lheim
    Posted April 27, 2010 at 6:45 pm | Permalink

    Lissana, you’re usually extremely upbeat.

    I can’t help but thinking maybe you’re stressing out a wee bit too much over these game changes. In the end, it’s just a game — and you’re spending enough time on ‘work’ for this game that you’re justifiably freaking out about your schooling. Not only that, but it’s work you don’t particularly enjoy. Step back a bit and re-prioritize.

    I think perhaps some of the reason Blizz is going to try to make the encounter challenge and encounter reward more equal between 10s and 25s is to relieve the stress-out of people who are in your position who don’t want to be.

    In the end, your difficulty in recruiting people may be a sign. Not only for you to re-think how you’re getting people, but.. for you to re-think what those people actually want. If recruiting for a 25 man guild is like pulling teeth.. maybe expansion apathy has already set in. Maybe it’s time to chill.

  10. zaloth
    Posted April 27, 2010 at 7:24 pm | Permalink

    Lissana,

    do you think it’s fair that 25m raiding guilds gets the opportunity to raid both raids every week, doubling the chance to get loot, while 10m guilds struggles on progressioin to get crapier loot? just a thought.

    in WotLK blizzard spoiled every raider, making epics rain from the skies. you can do so many raids to get lots and lots of gear it’s ridiculous. that’s why people think “that’s the end, oh lord”, they won’t be geting epics when they hit lvl 85 right off the bat.

  11. Lheim
    Posted April 27, 2010 at 7:28 pm | Permalink

    One of the reasons you’re freaking out, I think, is because you see these changes and think ‘great, now I’ll have to spend 10 hours recruiting, instead of 8, per day’.

    You’re working the problem from the wrong end of the stick here.

    • Posted April 27, 2010 at 8:27 pm | Permalink

      One of the reasons you’re freaking out, I think, is because you see these changes and think ‘great, now I’ll have to spend 10 hours recruiting, instead of 8, per day’.
      You’re working the problem from the wrong end of the stick here.

      Not really, as already posted people will almost always choose the shortest path from point A to B. So if 10 man is easier if only via out of game scheduling and more flexibility that is what people will do.

  12. Maeghane
    Posted April 27, 2010 at 7:55 pm | Permalink

    ** Edited by Lavata **

    Just calling names and providing no worth while comments will either be deleted or edited.

  13. Posted April 27, 2010 at 8:21 pm | Permalink

    If they’re already planning to limit the amount of Valor you can get per week, then there’s no reason to have shared lockouts at all.

    1) Kill Shared Lockouts.
    2) Have the loot ratio between 10 and 25 be 1:3 (or whatever)
    3) Limit Valor gains to 1 full clear of a tier (10 or 25)
    4) Keep shared loot tables

  14. jorani
    Posted April 27, 2010 at 8:53 pm | Permalink

    Since the announcement i have heard again and again qq about 25mans falling apart. How they love 25 man and the skiy is falling. Lott, gold, badges etc should be irrelevant if you are raiding for the experience. Considering all the qq there are obviously enough people wanting 25man raiding to fill at least 1 guild. The landscape will change. I think there will be less 25 man guilds. Your own guild may change but there will be options for the players who want 25 man raiding enough. Hopefully 25 man raiding will now be people who like the environment, and less epeen peeps who want to walk around town saying how good they are and how cool their gear is. i raid 10 and 25 at the moment, 25 on mage, 10 on druid. I love the variety. loot really is a bonus. maybe more people will get attached to an alt for the 10/25 experience. I hope so.
    Whatever the case thanks for the blog.

    j

  15. Steve Lake
    Posted April 27, 2010 at 9:53 pm | Permalink

    I play this game for fun, as do the people I raid with. If this change will affect the amount of fun I gain in either 25 or 10 man more I would be surprised.

    If you gain your fun via the level of gear you raid in or the rewards you earn then perhaps you should review your motivations.

  16. Lissanna
    Posted April 27, 2010 at 10:07 pm | Permalink

    Steve – I want to run 25′s, and I’d do it for no gear. However, I see the problem as convincing 24 other people to come & do it with me month after month & year after year.

  17. Nimizar
    Posted April 27, 2010 at 11:37 pm | Permalink

    I suspect jorani is on the right track in predicting 25-man guild *mergers* as the people only in it for the better loot migrate to the easier to organise 10 man groups.

    If it pans out that way, removing those people may actually reduce guild hopping and loot drama in the 25 man scene. Would it really be a bad thing if all 25 people in the raid were there because they preferred the larger group size rather than because they just wanted the shiniest PHAT LEWTZ?

  18. Posted April 27, 2010 at 11:52 pm | Permalink

    Thanks you Lissanna. You see the issue clearly and given it a fair review in the eyes of any 25 man raider.

    This will bring the end of most 25 man raiding.

  19. Felade
    Posted April 28, 2010 at 1:34 am | Permalink

    Nothing’s stopping you from running 25s in Cata. They’re still there. Judging from all the QQ on the internets, it won’t be hard to find 25 raiders who will still want to run 25s.

  20. snuzzle
    Posted April 28, 2010 at 2:28 am | Permalink

    I really respect you Lissanna, and the insight you bring to my favorite class. But this solution you’re proposing is, I believe, short sighted and passion-based. It’s just not feasible from a logistical standpoint and, more importantly, it doesn’t solve the issue Blizzard wants solved.

    “The solution I propose is to continue to allow 10’s & 25’s to be on different lockouts, so that 25-man raiding guilds can do both. At that point, they can still drop exactly identical rewards, with everything else they have set in place with the changes.”

    If 10 and 25 player both drop the same loot, and have different lockouts, they’re back to people feeling like they must run both every week for a full chance at their upgrades… even more so if they both drop identical loot. That’s making player feel forced (even though they aren’t) to grind the same dungeon twice a week AND have a double shoot at their loot.

    At that point they may as well just double the loot table of the bosses in 10 or 25, and kill off one of the raid sizes for good. Which isn’t what ANYONE wants.

    Blizz does NOT want us feeling like we must complete the same dungeon twice a week to stay competitive. They don’t want us completing the same dungeon twice a week, period. That’s why they’re making this change. That’s the big picture here. They want you to CHOOSE whether you prefer to run 10 or 25 player content and then run that. Not say “well I prefer 25 player content, but if I really want my drop, I’d better run it 10 too since I didn’t get it on 25 this week.”

    Running the same content multiple times a week will burn players out more quickly and makes content stale more quickly. And it’s just not fun for most people.

    So, if you (or anyone really) can come up with a solution that will accomplish this without doing what Blizz is, then please let us know.

  21. Arielle
    Posted April 28, 2010 at 3:03 am | Permalink

    Overreacting at this point doesn’t really serve a purpose, since we don’t know anything specific about what is going to happen.

    While it doesn’t hurt to make constructive criticism now (such as what is the point of a shared lockout if you’re capping valor gains anyway), crying wolf for the sake of crying wolf doesn’t help anyone.

  22. Toddler
    Posted April 28, 2010 at 3:12 am | Permalink

    Lissana what you are saying as I understadn it is that you enjoy 25 man raids better but dont like the strees it takes to organise one. Now the diffculties might be due to work commitments, personality clashes or otherwise. I agree totally with Nimizar above this chage will get rid of the loot whore rather than the keen 25 man players. The higher loot to raider ratio will still make it the choice for progression. World firsts are going to go to the 25 man guilds still.
    25 man and 10 man content are the same currently. do youu reallyt want to continue down a route where you have to raid two raids a week to remain competive in
    your guild.

  23. Dal
    Posted April 28, 2010 at 4:23 am | Permalink

    I’m confused.
    If 25-man raids are so much fun that the game would be lessened by their absence, then why is it so hard to recruit the groups for them? Why do 25m raiders need to be bribed with better purples?

    Either
    (a) they’re not something many people find fun, or
    (b) there are too many guilds that are essentially interchangeable for the number of 25-person raiders – hence the work in recruiting.

    In case (b), yes some guilds will go. The people who enjoy raiding 25s will keep doing it, just condensed into fewer guilds. This won’t be pleasant for those running one of the guilds that folds, agreed. But for everyone else, there’ll be minimal impact.
    (Maybe the guild changes for cata will help differentiate guilds to reduce the strain recruiting?)

    If it’s just that 25s are simply not much fun, then either it’s no loss to lose some, or Blizzard will see that they need to do something to make them fun – rather than bribing us to do it.

  24. Lheim
    Posted April 28, 2010 at 6:04 am | Permalink

    Couldn’t agree more, Dal. This change will undoubtedly cause some of the same kind of guild-shake up that the lead-up into BC caused, with the lowering of 40-mans to 25s – only 25s will still be present and still be an option for the truly dedicated.

    Blizz bribes people currently to do content in 25-man mode. If the majority’s natural inclination is for smaller groups, though.. why stymie them? Why give them inferior loot?

    Organizational hassles can’t be as bad as are being protrayed in this article, I really feel that we’re seeing somebody who’s just stressing out about life in general right now, and blaming it all on having taken too much onto her plate in-game. If they are so bad, it’s because it’s fighting people’s natural inclinations – they don’t LIKE 25 mans, and are only doing them for the sake of the bribe, and so are gruntled about it.

  25. Jack
    Posted April 28, 2010 at 6:28 am | Permalink

    I generally feel the same as you do about 25/10 man raids, especially concerning the issue of 25/10s being on the same lockout. I’m paying the same $$$, but getting half of the content I was previously with this plan. I enjoy doing relaxing 10 mans after our progression 25′s. In 10′s, we dont care if we full clear, or have a crappy group comp. Now, I wont be able to do that, and will essentially have zero reason to log on half of the week. The only way I can see them saving 25s, is if they put some extra merit in the Guild Achievement system, which is yet to be released. Perhaps 25′s will drop great LW/BS patterns that are craftable for guildmates only, have 25 man only mounts, and so on. Even under those circumstances, its a hard pill to swallow.

  26. Toxicolo
    Posted April 28, 2010 at 8:04 am | Permalink

    “I don’t like being in a 10-man group as much as I enjoy 25-man raiding. I like the big group feel”

    Um, the vast number of people don’t share this opinion. 25-man raiding is herding cats, and is a waste of time.

  27. Flynx@Frostwolf
    Posted April 28, 2010 at 10:05 am | Permalink

    Lissanna, you hit the nail right on the head, this raid ID change will be the death of 25-mans.

    I’m particularly concerned with being forced to choose between 10′s or 25′s for a given week. As I’m sure many 25-man raiding guilds who like keeping a tight roster have experienced, there are scheduled nights where a perfect storm of RL intruding on WoW occurs and there’s not enough folk to field a 25-man. When this happens, we’ll break up the raid into two 10′s for fun, badges, & offspec gear. If Blizzard goes through with this change, it will cut much needed flexibility off at the knees.

    This change is ill-conceived and totally unacceptable!

  28. Posted April 28, 2010 at 10:48 am | Permalink

    No this is a vain attempt like the pain in the ass that was ICC gating for the normal modes to be more “difficult” and not get ROLFstomped by the top .01% of the raiding guilds.

    So that there is maybe and extra week before raid burnout sets in before blizzard can get it’s monolithic ass in gear and get the next content patch out.

  29. B1ue
    Posted April 28, 2010 at 11:08 am | Permalink

    I admit, I had not fully considered how difficult recruiting and managing the 25-man raid is going to be in a world of shared lock-outs. But I will predict you a couple predictions that are at heart the same one: 25s will have a place in Azeroth. That place will be that of the PuG.

    In my guild at least, there will likely continue to be a 25man and 10man night, but the 10 groups are going to be member’s of our guild’s elite, the officers and hardcore among us who already run their own exclusive 10man and dominate recount in our 25. The 25 will be an alt/scrub/new-to-guild pool where potentials will be evaluated for advancement in the guild. Depending on the douchery of whomever is running the guild at the time (it’s changed hands amicably and succesfully a couple times), I can see officers rotated through the 25 man as a sort of chore. So in guild like mine, there may be a role for 25 mans to play.

    Prediction 2, this change may increase the number of tanks and competant tank alts, on account of the increased number of tank slots at the highest gear level. For a time, everyone with a gearedish tank at 85 is going to be running at least a raid a week, almost guaranteed. You say recruiting people willing to do 25 every week is going to be tough, but the competition for the best tanks of a realm is going to be bloody, especially since the 10s are going to tuned to demand just as much skill from the individual player as the 25s.

    And that, more than anything, is going to keep 25s alive. With harder difficulty and generally less forgiving boss mechanics toned down in 25s, the tank to dps ratio is going to drive pugs into 25 raids. It may not be pretty, but I think it’ll happen.

  30. ThanksBlizzard
    Posted April 28, 2010 at 1:01 pm | Permalink

    Well the way I see it, Blizzard does not care about the minority (the 25 man raiders) they don’t need to. What they care about is getting the most people possible paying the monthly fee. It’s that simple. The easier the game is to play, the more people will play. Those of us that like a challenge, are not as important as the 1000′s more players that want to go from 1-80 in a week, and get geared up in 2 days, then just stand around dalaran on my spiffy $25 mount and do nothing but spam trade all day.

    People don’t play Wow because of loyalty, they play because they are addicted. And the more people Blizzard can get addicted, the more money they make.
    It’s just business nothing more, nothing less.

  31. poekai
    Posted April 28, 2010 at 1:46 pm | Permalink

    I agree completely.

    This one change is going to doom my guild. Why will people spend the effort to do 25 man when 10 man offers the same reward with less stress and hassle.

    In my guild, our “main” 10 man is light years ahead of the 25 man. Why would these people continue to raid a 25 man? The answer is, for the most part they won’t. Unless you really really like 25 man.

    Our 10man will kill the LK hardmode in the next two weeks, while our 25m can’t even make it past phase 1 of LK normal. These 10 people carry and push forward the 25m that makes it possible for more casual people to actually see the content.

    I’m so sad, fustrated, and angry at this change.

    That for me, I’m in the good 10m, but what about the other players I like playing with who are actually good players and friends, but we do not have room in the raid for them? Now I have to dump them like an unwanted girlfriend because there just won’t be room, and what person would want to sit for 2 months waiting for a spot that MIGHT open up for 1 week or raiding.

    “It’s not you, its blizzard, they don’t like you.”

  32. nitzer
    Posted April 28, 2010 at 3:32 pm | Permalink

    I’ll explain why they cannot have the same separate lockouts for 10 and 25 man raids. The reason is that 10 man guilds cannot get a true progression path with 25 man players getting twice the loot in the same week i.e. ICC and clearing it ahead of them. It also prevents burnout for people running the same instances multiple times in the same week. 10 man instances were never meant to be a springboard for 25 man raiding. That was not Blizzards intention. This is the only way to make it fair.

    The only question from a guild officer point of view is what do you do with the other 5 people when 30 people show up on Tuesday? Once they have an answer to that question maintaining a roster shouldn’t be that difficult.

    • Posted April 28, 2010 at 3:47 pm | Permalink

      Ya and that answer will most likely be the same as it has been. FU so sorry but that is the limit too bad so sad. PuG it for the week or the guild has to set up a 25 & a 10 with 5 + 5 alts with same level of gear.

      It is not fun to manage Raid IDs in or out of game. With multiple bosses tied to 1 ID.

      Actually we should just forget it and move to 1 Boss = 1 ID. Tie the ID to bosses and not instance portals. Then if you kill a boss the second time you don’t qualify for the loot but you can still be there to help your friends.

      But we know raiders won’t do anything unless they are handed purples or at least an honest chance at them.

  33. nitzer
    Posted April 28, 2010 at 4:10 pm | Permalink

    Lavata I still think it is too early to tell. They’ve just thrown this broad concept at us. I still believe they can make it work and we need to see what these “Details” are. Every expansion has been OMG the sky is falling, but we are still here. Why is that? Because they seem to do something to keep us here. Raiders adapt. It has been proven over the course of the last 2 expansions.

    I’d expect a lot more raids at launch not just 1 like we have now so if you get locked out of one do another one. This may solve some issues regarding this. I just hope they release the details soon so that the sky is falling rhetoric can go out the window and we can get back to doing what we do each week.

  34. Lissanna
    Posted April 28, 2010 at 4:50 pm | Permalink

    Nitzer – but it’s more fun to post controversial things to get good conversations & discussions moving. :)

  35. Posted April 28, 2010 at 7:47 pm | Permalink

    Nitzer – we are still here because everyone either clones wow but not as well or the game sucks. Also unless our friends also play any other MMO there is no reason to move.

  36. Posted April 29, 2010 at 10:44 am | Permalink

    Fuck that shit.

    Well said. WTB new MMO that offer large scale raiding. WTB new MMO that supports Macs. WTB new MMO that encourages players to branch out and make connection with other people on their server!

    Perhaps. Perhaps they’ll give us 1 world boss – 40 man style? That’s about the only thing that gives me hope.

    I think it’s a true shame that the only really large scale raiding that will be available and commonplace in Cataclysm will be PVP events like Wintergrasp.

  37. Meugly
    Posted May 2, 2010 at 1:23 pm | Permalink

    I have been in a 10s only guild.
    “Hey dude, what are you guys working on?”
    “Lich King, woot!”
    “Oh yeah, I killed him last week, on an alt. Pretty easy fight on 10 man.”

    Well yeah, because he was tragically OVERGEARED for the fight. I am sick of people, friends even, that are wearing 25 man gear roflstomping the 10s. Go ahead and say that what someone else does shouldn’t affect what I am doing. It just doesn’t work that way.

    The entire idea of running only 10s have been, frankly, an utter and complete joke in WotLK. Any validity gets tossed out the window every time someone in 25 man gear steps in to a 10 man.

    There are a handful of people, a growing number it seems, that do realize that currently, doing 10 mans in gear only available from 10 mans is very challenging, possibly more so than 25s. One dps dies on 25, ah bummer. One dps dies in a 10, thats probably about 20% of your dps. Its probably a wipe.

    Most people are only running 25s because of the better loot.

    I would love to say this is a great change, and our 10 man only guild is excited about it. However, we are being absorbed by a 25 man guild because too many of our people were seduced by prettier purple pixels.

    This is the best raid change Blizzard has come up with in a long time. All the people that feel so threatened by this, why? What do you stand to lose? Or did you get some pleasure out of destroying content that you **knew** you overgeared? Is that your 25 man guild will now have to actually offer something to its members other than better loot to keep them around?

  38. Raider10
    Posted May 3, 2010 at 1:26 pm | Permalink

    I was in the top end raiding guild horde side on my server we knocked out H Anub before I called it quits. Guild drama happened and half the guuilded volted to other servers and some just quit the guild off the bat. Problem with High-End guild progression is the stress that is involved in raiding at that level. What ended up happening is that you did 25man normal and Heroic and 10man Heroic. That is 3 raids that I did up to that point as a must do to keep my spot in the 25man heroic. That entails having to come at timen and prepare for every raid. OMG I had so many emblems of Triumph that I was just buying orbs and selling them. Now that they are making 10 man and 25man in the same lockout you have up to 2 raids at most.

    Blizz noticed that it was becoming too much like a job to keep on track and gathering 25 well talented people into one guild was stressful and no fun. So what they did was make 10 man = 25 mans making it easier to get 10 talented players and more fun. It is much easier to familiarize one self to 9 other people than to 24 others. With only ten people you avoid the clicks that occured often when one sect of people wouldn’t really like another sect. I actually praise the change. This game should be fun and be something you can play twice to three times a week without feeling left behind by the person in the basement who has all day to play. PVP needs to be changed in a similar way. Blizz is starting to figure out that the current system of time>talent isn’t working to their advantage.

    To be more clear on that, is that when someone can invest 50 hours of wow play to gather emblems and what not over someone who can only invest 10. That 50 hour player tends to have better pve and pvp gear over that 10 hour player. Now you may say so what he invested the time and the others players are QQ, well if you put in into blizz point of view they rather keep the 10 hour player over the 50 because not only are they less likely to burned out like a previous poster eluded to but also there is like a 10:1 ration on 10 hour players over 50 hour players. So in turn that guy who has 50 hours to play may still suck and is being carried in his guild because he can invest more time over a better player who has a life outside of wow. Sure less time could be invested in raiding but when your raiding that 10 man you will know that you will more than likely know that person more personally but also he will pick up his own slack and you will be glad to give him that upgrade, instead of appeasing a bad player to avoid guild drama in the current system where 25mans are a must do.

  39. Locopooh
    Posted May 3, 2010 at 5:31 pm | Permalink

    Waited this one for a bit just to gather myself on this change.

    I don’t think 25 man will die out. Given the current details in the announcement, my prediction is that you’ll see more 25 mans raid and guilds in the begining of the content. Being all things equal, and their promise of more gear drop in 25s, player will tend to gravitate towards the 25s.

    Remember, the dificulty level between the 2 will be the same. But 25 drops more loot. Maybe 10 loot drop per boss instead of 2.

    However, once players get the gear, those who seek hardmodes or mounts or achievements, will move on to 10 mans due to it’s ease of organization.

    Now if my math is correct, you’ll need (2) 25s to ‘transform’ your raiding team to (5) 10s. Or you’ll just need to bench 5 DKs :)