Cata: Suggestions for a better resto raid healing toolset

With my last post, I outlined some mana cost & class balance problems associated with our raid healing toolset.

However, with how sensitive a lot of resto druids are about their ability to heal in Cataclysm, I wanted to have a slightly more positive suggestion post to spend a little more time talking about ways to possibly fix our AOE healing toolset.

At this point, I’m not focusing on the tank single-target healing toolset, because we actually have a good tank healing toolset, where we can use our 3 direct heals (regrowth, nourish, & healing touch), where regrowth gives us an additional HOT. We can put up a 3 stack of lifebloom on a single tank, and then put Rejuv & Regrowth HOTs on all the tanks as needed, which will allow our heals to tick on more than one tank in a raid situation, while we cast Nourish, HT, & regrowth’s direct heals as needed on a tank. The mana cost of our heals for direct healing are well within the range of the costs of other healers’ tools, and all of our HOT & direct heals for tank healing are going to come together and work similarly to how they do in WotLK, with the exception of Healing Touch being added to our arsenal (and you’d want to refresh Regrowth & rejuv reactively, rather than proactively, since both have direct heal components). They went to a lot of trouble to make tank healing work well enough where we will want to do more than spam more than 1 or 2 buttons on a tank.

The AOE healing problem (short version): Blizzard made Wild Growth & Rejuv more expensive to make us less likely to want to spam them around the raid for AOE healing purposes. However, they did not give us an alternative that was any more mana efficient to fill the raid healer role, as Regrowth’s Effloresence was presented to us as the alternative, at a higher mana cost than a rejuv, meaning that all 3 of our raid healing tools are now mana expensive.

Potential AOE healing Solutions:

  • As I said last thread, the easiest solution would be to bring down Wild Growth’s mana cost (probably to the 30 to 35% of base mana cost range). Rejuv & Regrowth have much more balanced mana costs when compared to the mana cost of tools that other healers have, so it would be possible to weave regrowth & rejuv between WG casts if WG was more reasonably priced (30 to 35% of base mana is still going to be a lot of mana at 85).
  • The most fun solution, however, would be to make a talent in the restoration tree that allowed our new Wild Mushroom spells to heal the people standing in that 10 yard radius when the Mushrooms are Detonated.

How Wild Mushrooms work now:

Wild mushrooms are targeted on the ground. In a raid dungeon, this is going to be under bosses or other enemies. When the mushrooms are killed or we use our detonate button, the wild mushrooms explode and do some damage. This seems to be a more PvP-oriented spell, which we can’t actually test yet, since we can’t hit the level 85 requirement needed to learn them.

Moonkin get a talent that allows mushrooms to slow the enemies that the explosion hits.

Mushroom Healing Talent Suggestion:

I am pretty sure that I’ve identified a weakness in the restoration druid’s toolset that will prevent us from being effective raid healers in Cataclysm, where combined with a strong tank healing toolset, resto druids need some sort of OOMPH for our raid/AOE healing toolset to be able to have the choice & flexibility needed to be able to fill either role, without having to resort to 2-button spamming.

The “detonate” portion of the mushroom ability allows us to trigger mushrooms when we want them to go off. So, we could line up mushrooms under friendly targets (if we want to) and then detonate them as needed. They could adjust the number of shrooms that can be active at a time, as it wouldn’t really hurt moonkin to only be able to put out 2 or 3 at a time if 5 was too much.

The detonate is a really neat functionality of the spell, which would work great as a new healing spell, different from anything else that the other healers have – but definitely in line with the tools that other people have available (ie. chain heal is only 17% of base mana, so with shrooms at 11% to set, and 11% to detonate, up to 22% of base mana is definitely in line with other heals – with more shrooms up at  time being more mana efficient to detonate).

If the healing cost was kept low, then it could be balanced into our toolset (where we choose between healing a small amount now, or picking a more mana expensive tool to tick over time). In addition, having to place it before triggering means that if people move, you still risk losing that heal, so you have to add skill & choice into your AOE healing playstyle.

Where to add it into the talent tree:

  • Good candidate talents would be: Empowered Rejuvenation, OR Fury of the Stormrage.
  • Empowered rejuv would work because the Healing Mushroom talent could be in place of one of the boring/passive HOT increasing talents, or tacked onto the HOT increase portion to have a mix or passive & active talent – especially since you would want a secondary effect on the talent that could be used while leveling up prior to 85.
  • Fury of the Stormrage is a good candidate talent for a healing shroom because it was the talent designed to mix our DPS & healing spells, and right now FotSR is actually not that good of a talent (to the point where most people are likely to skip it for basically any situation).

Conclusions:

To be effective raid healers, where we don’t just spam rejuv, wildgrowth, & Regrowth proactively around a raid group (which will be a bad healing style in Cataclysm), we need a new tool that allows for more reactive AOE healing. With tranquility on an 8 minute cooldown, we get to use it once a boss fight, or every other boss fight, depending on length of the fights & amount of trash.

The best candidate for a reactive healing spell that would work as an AOE heal would be the new Wild Mushrooms spell. I think Healing Shrooms would go a long way to restoring our AOE healing ability to a point where we could choose between tank healing & raid healing (or have a better ability to mix up spells when assigned to raid/AOE healing). The point of Cataclysm is about having to make hard choices, and Healing Shrooms would allow for choice to be put back into restoration druids’ group & raid AOE healing toolset.

TLDR: Make a resto talent that allows Wild Mushrooms to heal, and resto druids will be able to be either tank or raid healers, as opposed to only being good at tank healing in the current Cataclysm design.

41 Comments

  1. Verdus
    Posted August 2, 2010 at 1:54 pm | Permalink

    I’m really digging the idea of getting a healing use out of Wild Mushroom. In addition to be neat, it means that Resto gets a new spell after all! However, I think there may be an even simpler and more elegant way to work it in… Add Wild Mushroom detonation as a second trigger for Efflorescence. It heals multiple people in a given radius, along the lines of your current idea, and it even aligns with the “leave stuff behind on the ground” theme that Balance druids established for it with Fungal Growth.

  2. Posted August 2, 2010 at 3:01 pm | Permalink

    Ok, I like the idea as a whole. But if they choose to go this route, then I think they will have to eliminate the damage portion of the spell. It would be much too powerful if it both healed the friendly players and still dealt damage to the enemies in the area. So you’d have to give up the offensive capabilities of the mushroom (at least on detonation) in exchange for the healing it would provide.

    • Lissanna
      Posted August 2, 2010 at 3:23 pm | Permalink

      It would need to retain some of it’s damage potential to fill the role of blending some damage & healing that they want in Cata. It could, however, reduce the amount of damage by some amount, or it could reduce the # of shrooms that can be active at once (ie. gives your shrooms a chance to heal & do damage, but only 1 or 2 shrooms can be active at a time?). I’d like to leave some offensive capablility, even if they had to lower the base damage and then give moonkin back some of that damage through talents or something.

      Holy nova does both damage & healing at a low mana cost, but it just doesn’t hit very hard. That’s more in line with what I envision the shrooms for resto druids hitting for.

  3. Posted August 2, 2010 at 3:58 pm | Permalink

    That’s a very inventive idea. I like it quite a bit. It makes the mushrooms more fun and makes healing more fun in general. I’d be willing to bet that someone’s desk has a printout of this blog post sitting on it with a sticky note saying “Why didn’t we think of this??!?!?!??”

    • Lissanna
      Posted August 2, 2010 at 4:01 pm | Permalink

      That’s what they keep me around for. lol.

  4. Nimizar
    Posted August 2, 2010 at 5:06 pm | Permalink

    Do want :)

    Note that the base damage on Wild Mushroom (270-304) isn’t *that* much higher than that on Holy Nova (208-340), although the x5 from having the full set of mushrooms out makes a big difference. Having each point in the relevant talent reduce the number of mushrooms by 1 and increase the power of the heal (so the most powerful heal limits you to 2 mushrooms) would probably be balanced.

    From a thematic point of view, adding an AoE heal to Wild Mushrooms *really* seems to fit in with Efflorescence. Unfortunately, that would probably make that talent overpowered, even though it fits.

    Without WM being implemented yet, we don’t know if there will be a time for how long the mushrooms will last without detonating automatically (or fade without detonating, ala hunter traps). So another possibility may be to set a healing WM up as creating an Efflorescence like HoT around your mushrooms, but reducing the duration before they fade or automatically detonate.

    Regardless of how it was done, the core concept of making WM a mixed damage+heal AoE like Holy Nova sounds like a lot of fun.

    • Lissanna
      Posted August 2, 2010 at 5:12 pm | Permalink

      and what I want is a tool that will make druid AOE healing more viable & fun. Blizzard can do whatever they need to make it balanced, which is why I don’t have actual numbers in any of my posts or comments. I just plant seeds of ideas and hope that they take bloom. ;)

  5. Thorn
    Posted August 2, 2010 at 5:28 pm | Permalink

    Repeat after me:
    “Resto druids are not getting any new healing spells in Cataclysm”

    No sneaking one in the back door by ‘perverting’ balance druids only new ability in fifteen levels to heal people.

    Well unless of course balance druids can use it when in moonkin form as well :)

    • Lissanna
      Posted August 2, 2010 at 5:30 pm | Permalink

      I don’t want a new spell just for the sake of having a new spell. However, I want THIS.

      I was also told: no charges for Eclipse (but the new version of Eclipse works just like charges). I was told Eclipse would always be a random proc (and now it’s much less random). I was told in BC Beta that tree form would always have a slow (which it doesn’t have now on the live server). It’s always possible to change Blizzard’s mind if you present them with a compelling enough argument and repeat it enough times until Blizzard things it was their idea. ;)

      • MrX
        Posted August 3, 2010 at 2:52 pm | Permalink

        In my opinion Replace Efforolance’s dependency on regrowth with Shrooms

        I Feel it was implemented as our weak aoe heal anyway, but regrowth is too expensive replacing it with Shrooms would be a cool way to fix the issue.

  6. Nathlar
    Posted August 2, 2010 at 10:10 pm | Permalink

    I really like the constructive way you use, and i agree that the sky is not necessarily falling, but having healing mushrooms sounds like a really awful idea to me due to the complications of how to target the spell and the visibility needed to do this.
    Try to think about raid healing using any raid frames tools and then realizing that “player1″ needs healing, then how do i find where in the room is P1? how do i put a circle under his feet to put a mushroom there (assuming it targets like treants or hurricane)? how do i avoid him to move out of the mushroom area before triggering it? It just goes against “smart targeting” healing where i just need the player to be in range and click on top of a little square.

    We need something more, but i really doubt we need more spells, they need to fine tune against reju blanketing + WG on any CD, but neither efflorescence or “healing shrooms” seems good ideas to me.

    Lets get the Blizzard people do their job, i’m pretty sure they’ll find a way to solve it (either that or i’ll just have to move to my shamy :P

    • Lissanna
      Posted August 2, 2010 at 10:24 pm | Permalink

      You would use it more strategically, ie. under the feet of the melee DPS, or under the feet of the ranged group, or under your feet, etc. It wouldn’t be an on-demand spam.

      • Nathlar
        Posted August 2, 2010 at 10:30 pm | Permalink

        Select location on the map (takes me out of grid), click somewhere, then click a button to make it explode, then back to grid, too messy for my taste.
        As you said, strategically used heal , do you think we’ll be able to outpace a chain heal shammy with that?

        • Lissanna
          Posted August 2, 2010 at 10:34 pm | Permalink

          The point isn’t to outpace chain heal, but to use one of our existing spells to add more healing options. It’s not supposed to be an I-win button, and it fits in line with Blizzard’s positional healing. Aside from that, there aren’t any new tools to give us. Aside from “give us chain heal”, this is the best I can come up with, besides just going OOM with WG/Rejuv/Regrowth, or ending up just being tank healers.

          I understand that the strategy won’t work as well for people with some mods, but you may end up just being a tank healer instead, because I don’t see an alternative option at this point. Maybe Blizzard will just surprise me and magically make everything better, lol. Otherwise, I suggest a mod called “healing shroom” to go with grid or healbot, lol.

        • Posted August 3, 2010 at 1:59 am | Permalink

          Ya it would be nice for the AoE Target Area spells if you have a target the effect is cast centered on them so you would not have to switch to lining up the spell just right. On the other hand with the way healing is suppose to go in Cata with Health pools being much larger and most not getting insta-gibbed to stop playing wack-a-mole in the grid and actually see the fight for a change may be a good thing. Right now the main problem with grid and all the bloody meters going is people are too focused on the tools and not on the mechanics of the fight.

  7. Posted August 3, 2010 at 2:44 am | Permalink

    Your WM idea is interesting. Personally, I wasn’t bothered about Resto druids not getting another spell (apart from the efflorescence effect), as I do feel we have plenty of tools to work with (just a shame that so many druids refuse to use anything other than rejuv/wg) – however, the idea you have for WM is neat. I can see it going with what Blizz seems to be aiming for with regards to healing and raiding in general in Cata – more targeted and smart raiding, basically (making players think about what they do and where they stand, move etc, rather than just mindlessly spamming buttons). I can certainly see cases where I might use such a spell, and it might be quite good proactively – using a familiar example, I can see placing it by an Iceblock point in Sindragosa in phase2, to help heal the raid when I know they’ll be moving to stand by the block to LoS the boss. Or, taking into acount the damage portion, say on a fight like Festergut underneath the tanks, melee, and the boss.

    I can see the case for a spell like that seeming overpowered (even with comparisons to holy nova), but if as you suggest it’s specced somewhere deep in Resto, perhaps along with Efflorescence or ToL, perhaps it would appear more balanced. Another thought too may be that for Resto druids it removes the damage effect, though this would likely peel back from Blizz’s seeming desires to have us be more on the offensive.

    I’m already feeling a bit pressed for talent points, though, so at least from a PVE perspective I don’t think I’d find it to be as desirable if it would require speccing into Fury of Stormrage. Until perhaps high gear levels where mana regen will be less of an issue (though still requiring concious spell decisions), I’m already low on points trying to take full heal-boosting talents and sacrificing some points in the mana-oriented talents.

    As for WG, it seems the mana cost was raised so much simply to try to break people of the 5Rejuvs/WG spam that so many fell into. I wouldn’t be surprised if they reduce the cost at some point once people start to shift what they do (if they shift). It’s also possible that the nature of damage taken and, hence, the heals required, will also be shifting such that raid healing won’t be how we do it today anyway. Unfortunately I’m not in the beta ,so you’ll have more of a feel for it so far I imagine, though I suppose all that too may change by the time it’s live hehe. Raid content at 85 may yet be a different beast as well.
    I don’t know that the mana cost will really be prohibitive of WG use, perhaps just high enough that we’re not mindlessly spamming it every time it’s off CD, which really may not be a bad thing, as it would hopefully reintroduce many druids to the rest of their healing arsenal.

    • Lissanna
      Posted August 3, 2010 at 10:48 am | Permalink

      “As for WG, it seems the mana cost was raised so much simply to try to break people of the 5Rejuvs/WG spam that so many fell into.”

      The problem is that this is our only way to deal with multiple people taking damage at the same time. Regrowth + effloresence leaves us with the exact same healing strategy in Cata that we have now in live, except that when someone is below 25% health, regrowth will be better to use than Rejuv. People would stop using WG/Rejuv if Blizzard gave us another option. In Cataclysm, just making that healing stategy terrible, without giving us a GOOD raid healing strategy, means we get to be terrible raid healers.

      I’m asking for an alternative, because right now, I don’t see one.

  8. Aviena
    Posted August 3, 2010 at 6:51 am | Permalink

    Very enjoyable read, Lissana! Thankyou -so much- for putting all this time and effort into testing out cataclysm druid healing and passing it along to those of us not lucky enough to be in the beta. Hopefully somebody from Blizzard will see this, too. :)

  9. Atoyot
    Posted August 3, 2010 at 8:35 am | Permalink

    I have to agree. We have all the tools & spells we need. While I love the idea of the Wild Mushroom I think it has to be something contained in something already there…

    Be it wild growth or Effloresencs but one of these should be the spawn point of Wild Mushrooms.

    I would almost look at it as being more a form of bloodlust than it being a AoE Dot/Hot.

    the more I think about it… The more I am leaning to it being part of Effloresence. So it spawns the mushrooms as part of its bloom which do damage to mobs when then enter the AoE area. I would think of it more like taking damage from walking thru lava.

    Adding the Explosive part while neat would drive alot of healers who rely on addons crazy. So it needs to be a worthwhile spell to get the players out of whatever addons they use to heal.

    Effloresence with a stackable DoT Tick with a big boom on the end? Sounds like a plan to me!

    • Lissanna
      Posted August 3, 2010 at 10:50 am | Permalink

      The problem is that I want something to break up WG/Rejuv/Regrowth-spam in Cataclysm, because we won’t have the mana pools to sustain proactive HOT healing alone, and reactive HOT healing isn’t going to keep up with reactive direct healing. Effloresence is a proc that happens when Regrowth’s direct healing crits – which means it’s never going to be something you can count on when you need it the most (you can’t ever force regrowth to crit, although it gets an increased crit chance on people at low health).

      For much the same reason that Disc won’t be spamming shields around the raid, druids won’t be spamming HOTs around the raid, either, which means we won’t be raid healing very much with our current toolset. We’ll be casting HOTs, but the majority of our time right now (based on our current toolset) is tank healing. For any druid who wants to be a tank healer, we have great tools.

  10. Erdluf
    Posted August 3, 2010 at 1:38 pm | Permalink

    Neat ideas. It could also be tied to the Wild Growth talent: Detonating your mushroom(s) gives a Wild Growth tick(s) to players within 10 yards.

    For five targets, this is less mana efficient than WG (5 mushrooms+detonate=66% mana for 5 tics, vs. 55% for WG that gives 7 tics). However you could hit more than 5 targets and pre-positioning an AoE heal is an interesting capability.

  11. EnderAsha
    Posted August 3, 2010 at 2:30 pm | Permalink

    I think you are on the right track Lissanna about giving us a raid heal that costs less but also heals less than wild growth (ideally somewhat less cost ineffective than wild growth as well) to give us an added tool in our arsenal. Wild Growth should only be used, if it stays that expensive, when you know all 5 (or 6) people will take full use of the healing it can provide and NEED the healing that it can provide in such a short time frame.

    The only thing I get a little worried about is when I look at the numbers and cost for Chain Heal and Circle of Healing. A priest responded to your thread in the beta forums saying that WG heals for 50% more than CoH and therefore should be more expansive. Circle of healing at 811 mana x 1.5 is 1215 which is still considerably less than 1922 (WG in your post)…these numbers will hopefully get tweaked down the line to be more homogenous or at least be proportionate in cost, however right now compared to Chain Heal (and a lesser extent Circle of Healing) and its cost things might seem a little unfair. I think this why a lot of people are worried the sky is falling and I can see that. The observation is “Our raid healing tools are being made drastically more expensive while a smart heal like chain heal (though it heals for less) costs substantially less”. it makes a really good case for needing that mid level raid healing utility. Shamans in turn gained Healing Rain which is their “expensive” raid healing tool.

    The new level 80 costs you listed had Chain heal at 747 mana. A smart heal that can heal up to 4 targets for that mana is super efficient when all 4 people need the healing that it provides. Chain Heal also hits pretty well up front making it, at its very worst, a mediocre direct heal. While yes Shamans do need to worry about wasting mana if the spell can’t find the 4 people it needs to heal however the mana wasted in such a situation is much less than wild growth. The risk per reward ratio is very low on this spell which is probably why it’s a staple in their rotation. To stay on par in this game of high cost heals we need something that costs considerably less than WG and heals only a couple of people for a medium amount or a cluster of people for a small amount. The costs needs to work such that we can’t cast it back to back for a long period of time, however we are punished far less if we cast it and cannot make use of 100% of its effective healing. The mushrooms *could* do that but I think as some people pointed out you run into a couple of logistical issues. As fights are right now we don’t have time to sit and place an area on the ground to heal people (save for melee) for a couple of reasons: a.) some fights are highly mobile and the effect could be completely wasted b.) some fights are so intensive we don’t have time to mousover an area on the ground.

    If the fights slow down considerably and they can make the mushroom thing work then all the better. I would like to see whatever tool they decide to add be a HoT. Even if the mushroom exploding heal placed a hot on people that would be nice. I would like to see more of our healing done affected by our mastery.

    I appreciate your response to my previous comment pertaining to my worry over our mastery. I am still somewhat worried that with this renewed push for druids to use direct heals and our principle hots becoming semi niche with high casting costs I’d like to know just how much of a bonus this mastery works out to be. For our tank healing a buff to rejuv/lifebloom is nice but I’m hard pressed to see if numerically it works out in our favor compared to the other masteries (most notably shaman who get a buff to LHW and CH). Regrowth is still a troubling wild card for me as well.

    • Posted August 3, 2010 at 2:52 pm | Permalink

      There is one thing you are forgetting about Ender and why druids need another direct heal. In a environment where players are sitting between 60-80% health HoTs are extremely powerful. Unlike now where it is spam city for every heal because even at 100% people could die in 3 seconds if not healed immediately.

      A timed direct heal is better because there is more room for reactive healing. HoT layering is great for preemptive and in the case of Disc Priest mitigative healing.

      On the mitigative side I thought it would be interesting to make the talent for the healing shroom also give Tranquility a secondary effect for more strategic healing. Something like while channeling tranquility all raid members in X range take Y% less damage and for Z seconds after casting has ended.

      For numbers something like 40 yards range, 10% less damage and for 3-5 seconds after casting. Place a debuff on the players like Heroism/Bloodlust does so you can’t just stack the damage reduction.

      • EnderAsha
        Posted August 3, 2010 at 3:42 pm | Permalink

        If people are going down slowly you can still layer reactive hot’s. The reason why hot’s can’t be reactive now is that by the time you apply one (including human reaction time) it takes 3 seconds to tick and thus may be too late to do what it needs to do…in some sense swiftmend is our reactive direct heal. If people are going to be hovering between 60% and 80% (I’m still going to have to reign in my trigger finger when it comes to leaving someone at 60% health) then well placed hots of varied strength can still be placed with some form of intelligent design.

        The only reason I was pushing for a hot over a direct heal is our mastery. I just want to get a little more bang for the buck. If we got a druid version of chain heal with appropriate flavor and style variation (e.g. a spell that is a direct heal on the target and splashes a HoT on two nearby raid members within 10 yards) we would have something to fill that role. We need a spell that can hit a couple of people that won’t heal them for too much but allows us to not cripple our mana supply especially if it splashes to people who end up not needing the healing (heal sniped) and will be less efficient than using a direct heal on the person in the first place. This is going to be a gross simplification but If they want to compare our tool boxes here is how I sort of perceive things:

        Priest:
        Fast Inefficient Heal: Flash Heal
        Efficient Heal: Heal
        Big Inefficient Heal: Greater Heal
        HoT: Renew
        Tank Heal Tool: PWS (also Prayer of Mending)
        Medium Sized Raid Heal Tool: Circle of Healing/Prayer of Mending
        Large Sized Raid Heal Tool: Prayer of Healing
        Big Cooldown: Divine Hymn

        Shaman:
        Fast Inefficient Heal: Lesser Healing Wave
        Efficient Heal: Healing Wave
        Big Inefficient Heal:
        HoT equivalent (sort of): Riptide
        Tank Heal Tool: Earthshield
        Medium Sized Raid Heal Tool: Chain Heal
        Large Sized Raid Heal Tool: Healing Rain
        Big Cooldown: ????????

        Druid:
        Fast Inefficient Heal: Regrowth (might heal for less than equivalent due to hot)
        Efficient Heal: Nourish
        Big Inefficient Heal: Healing Touch
        HoT: Rejuvenation
        Tank Heal Tool: Lifebloom
        Medium Sized Raid Heal Tool: ????????
        Large Sized Raid Heal Tool: Wild Growth
        Big Cooldown: Tranquility

        • Lissanna
          Posted August 3, 2010 at 5:21 pm | Permalink

          They could have the mastery still effect Healing Shrooms. At this point, I’m pretty sure our mastery isn’t going to be that great in a Cata healing design. However, it hasn’t been implemented yet for me to test it.

  12. Posted August 3, 2010 at 8:22 pm | Permalink

    World of Raids is gathering a list of bloggers who are in beta – and so far no druids listed.

    http://www.worldofraids.com/topic/17450-cataclysm-beta-community-blog-watch/

  13. Wammes
    Posted August 4, 2010 at 3:13 am | Permalink

    Nice idea about a (semi) new healing spell.
    The thing i’m missing is that you’re adressing the mana problems of tree’s in cataclysm and end up with a new heal (which is very nice, but doesn’t quit solve the mana issue). I like to continue on your suggestion to use an existing feature (like WM), but add a glyph to chance the damage portion into a mana return of some sort. The amount might be linked to the number of people it “would have damaged” if unglyphed, so you still are forced to place them in a smart spot. An additional talent is somewhat off i guess:you already have 40 points you could spend before you advance to the last tier (as opposed to my main balance concern: only 36 points to spend so there are hardly any real choices).

    • Lissanna
      Posted August 4, 2010 at 11:13 am | Permalink

      Well, since we aren’t level 85, mana balancing isn’t something that I can do with absolute certainty.

      SO, what I used the mana discussion for was to try & identify why druids didn’t seem like capable raid healers. What I did identify is a core mechanic problem that is unlikely to be fixed by reducing the mana cost of WG.

      We actually have a nice mana return mechanic in the resto tree right now, which will restore a good chunk of mana over the course of the fight if we have HOTs on mutliple people, and our crit is high enough. We also have innervate, and mana is supposed to be a concern. If we are able to choose between Healing Shrooms & WG for a lower or higher mana AOE cost, then we’ll be in line with where other healers are now.

  14. Ares
    Posted August 4, 2010 at 12:23 pm | Permalink

    Wow Lissanna, this is a very good idea! I could definitely see this as being a spell blizzard would want to look into, despite the fact that they said they wouldn’t want to give resto druids any new heals.

  15. Conghaile
    Posted August 4, 2010 at 4:31 pm | Permalink

    I don’t heal, but it won’t stop me from postulating about the necessity of a mana efficient, reactive AoE healing spell in Cataclysm. Blizzard has stated that relative health pools will be larger, and that mana conservation will become a more central concern for healers in general, and this creates the rosy outlook of a healing style that is not GCD-locked. In such a world, the following are situations in which I would think it necessary to use a reactive AoE heal:

    1) Too many DPS erring and taking damage at once.
    2) Healer fell behind on healing steady situational raid damage.
    3) Exceptional encounter mechanics that necessitate imminent reactive AOE healing, such as decimate.

    If (a very big if) number 3 fades out of encounter design, then that leaves numbers 1 and 2 as the only reasons an AoE should be used. Considering they are player errors, it could easily be argued that the corrective measure employed should come at high cost.

    Now several things could render my whole scenario moot (or already do, as I’m simply a philosopher who is not cognizant of reality):

    a) Blizzard could not do or fail to succeed at what they say they are doing with health pools and mana.
    b) Number 3 from above and unavoidable raid damage in general would remain a common element of boss encounters.
    c) Other healers get more efficient AoE heals (as illustrated above by EnderAsha’s class breakdown above), which would just be plain unfair. Even if efficient AoE isn’t required, it doesn’t excuse inequity.

    • Lissanna
      Posted August 4, 2010 at 5:53 pm | Permalink

      They are adding in a number of AOE healing tools to other classes. They wouldn’t be giving those tools to the other classes if they never expected AOE healing tools to be used.

      They gave an equivalent to Wild Growth to shaman, so now shaman have both chain heal & Healing Rain for their AOE healing toolset.

      They gave 2 AOE heals to paladins (and while their design still needs a lot of work, it was something Blizzard has been paying attention to).

      By giving other people AOE healing tools, and discouraging us from using Wild Growth & Rejuv as raid healing tools, we’re at the point where there is likely to be an inequity.

      • Conghaile
        Posted August 5, 2010 at 4:01 pm | Permalink

        Looking over all the classes, I see that Healing Rain, Prayer of Healing, and Wild Growth at least have similar mana costs. You said Efflorescence was presented as a solution, and I think it qualifies as the second AoE tool; the problem with it now, in addition to hiding behind an expensive spell in Regrowth as you’ve already pointed out, is that it’s too powerful to fill the same niche as Circle of Healing and Chain Heal because it has both no limit on the number of targets and no cooldown. Casting Regrowth on a tank, for example, would mean healing the entire cadre of melee. On the downside, the HoT aspect of it makes it somewhat proactive, whereas its supposed equivalents are wholly reactive.

        I tried to think of a way to change Efflorescence to fit the bill a little better, and what I thought up is to is to limit the number of targets it can hit to reign in its power a little, and apply a mana return similar to Lifebloom to lower its cost. By that definition however, the healing portion mimics exactly the mechanics of Wild Growth, which would be totally lame. Viva la mushrooms!

  16. Lavarinth
    Posted August 4, 2010 at 6:28 pm | Permalink

    In the your post above this one I can see the fact they you understand what I’m going to say.

    I’ve been reading the responses from those that disagree in your Beta forum post and they don’t seem to understand that what we want is CHOICE. They are blindsided by the fact that druids can do great raid heals currently in WotLK with just rejuv spam over them. The fact of the matter is rejuv/wg spam does not work in Cata because of increased mana costs.

    They have choices of using different AOE heals and we are neglacted to just ONE. We have TWO options now, but the increased mana costs of rejuv/regrowth removes one choice.

    They seem to me to imply that rejuv/regrowth spam is a choice but it really isn’t.

    HoTs are made to be effiecent currently because they take time to heal instead of upfront healing. By increasing their mana costs they are no longer effiecent and not equal to other classes similar heals because of that fact – TIME. I believe this was argued in the past before when they increased lifeblooms mana cost.

    My post was mostly directed at those in the forum post, apologies if you may have thought it was at you.

    • Lissanna
      Posted August 5, 2010 at 11:43 am | Permalink

      Yeah, I already put one person on ignore on the beta forums so I’ll stop responding to them. :)

  17. Wharep
    Posted August 4, 2010 at 6:38 pm | Permalink

    Alright, interesting spell suggestion.
    From what I’ve read elsewhere, resto druids AE abilities are rather limited atm, which it really shouldn’t be.
    Having a spell like WG as being limited somehow is all ok with me, as I actually dislike it somewhat (it’s rather simple (the smartheal part)).

    Your Healing Shroom suggestion somewhat fixes that, as you at least have to pay attention to more than just your frames, when placing it. You can ofc already do this, by moving into a good position between melee and ranged, and then cast WG in yourself – I’ve used this a lot. Being as expensive as it currently is in the beta, I bet you want to make the most of it.
    But reading the description of VM, it seems like you cast VM @ a target, which would make Healing Shrooms less usable and interesting).

    I could also see a model where they change TranQ, so it’ll heal for less and cost less and have less cd – but keep the channeling time. As hots is our specality, it means we’ll have to top off the tank and have some hots running, while using TranQ, giving it a _slight_ tactical use.
    It would ofc remove a good powerful but long (raid)healing cd, but that could possibly be added to ToL somehow, so that using ToL also give us the ability to get a strong AE heal off.

    People have also talked alot about Efflorescence. As you said, it just isn’t reliable enough as an AE heal, even though we probably can use it on dps’ers taking some dmg, from time to time.
    I was thinking of somehow adding the requirement for Efflorescence to proc to targets with WG on them – as in; “When your Regrowth heals a target with Wild Growth active, a bed of healing flora will sprout underneath the target, healing all nearby friendly targets within 15 yards who stand on them for [10%/20%/30%] of the amount healed by your Regrowth every sec for 7 sec.”
    When saying “your Regrowth heals” it could possibly also include the hot effect, so that if you cast WG on targets with the RG hot, that’ll also help, however as RG keeps ticking, something has to be done to tackle that – unless a new bed should sprout every time it ticks:)
    It’ll be much more reliable, though to get the rotation just right, numbers will have to be changed a fair bit.

    I was actually fairly jealous on the shamans, because they got healing rain – it was a healing mechanic I had long hoped would be added to the druids arsenal. Even though shamans now got it, I would still be happy with some spell, that requires us to ‘know where we are’. Another nice spell, would be something like Cone of Cold, whre you just heal people standing in a certain direction and within a certain distance, this would at least also require you to be mobile and aware of your surruondings.

  18. Nathlar
    Posted August 4, 2010 at 8:28 pm | Permalink

    This has been a nice discussion, lets hope our blue friends see it. To me the thing keeps being about proactive/reactive hots, maybe there wont be too much proactive hots now, it’ll depend a lot on in how much time will people die. if we have a lot of time maybe they want us to use regrowth on people at 50% life hoping for efflorescence, some reju here and there, and only if there is a lot of damage go for WG or tranquility.

    Until we see the fights design we wont know, but i hope its viable with our current spell roster, because i think we have enough buttons.

    • Lissanna
      Posted August 5, 2010 at 11:14 am | Permalink

      well, the problem is that once we see the fights, it’s already too late to fix the problem. So, my goal is to let Blizzard’s internal testers figure it out before we see the fights.

      • Wharep
        Posted August 5, 2010 at 1:00 pm | Permalink

        It’s all about making sure we have to tools to fill the jobs we’re here to do – and whitch fits with our class. I wouldn’t say it’s too late otherwise, but the chance of getting any major change through is drastically reduced when they are done with this stage of the design.
        I think it’s pretty obvious, that they haven’t had a second look on the resto tree, so when they get to this, they’ll probably also take note of discussions like this.
        Tbh, lowering the cd and throughput on TranQ could more or less solve our problems. We still have the ermegency cd in our new ToL (provided that really works out, I’m a bit doubtful), and 8 mins really is a lot.

  19. Tralia
    Posted August 7, 2010 at 6:57 am | Permalink

    Hey I finally made it to the site after reading your Beta forum post and totally wanting to ring some necks ( to bad I’m not in Beta).

    Anyways I was like a lot of people when they first announced we weren’t getting anything new, so what? We had plenty of things we weren’t really using anyways so it was almost like getting something new. After reading many many posts I know agree we definately need something that fits in between.

    Personally I’m not to big on the Mushroom Idea. I don’t hold that opinion because I think its a bad one, its just generally things like that end up getting axed because they can’t figure out a way to make them work without it feeling clunky ( WotLK axed version comes to mind).

    Personally i think it needs to be a totally new spell, not really tied to anything else. Part of the problem I’m seeing lately is that a good chunk of our heals are trying to cover way to much ground ( also why I think the ToL CD is lackluster but that another discussion). Regrowth is definately the prime example, its a Flash heal, a HoT, and an AOE heal. I just dont see how the heck you balance all of that.

    Personally I would like to see Efflorescence become its own heal. Maybe something that you cast on an individual and it ” grows” in an area around them for a certain amount of time. It would be something players would need to move to if they needed a heal ( semi lightwellish). It could be something as well that you could make work with other spells, “for every additional HoT on the target the area increases by 1 yard and the speed of the growth is increased”.

    Its just a very raw idea in my mind at this point, but I like it better than the mushroom idea =/

    • Tralia
      Posted August 7, 2010 at 6:59 am | Permalink

      btw that was supposed to be the Axed Heroic Leap from WoTLK >.< in ( )

    • Lissanna
      Posted August 7, 2010 at 8:39 am | Permalink

      Yeah, I can see what you mean.