Good bye efflorescence?

So, the collective 4.0.6 resto druid changes “fix” druids by basically reverting us back to an older state of resto druids, where our main Raid healing strategy seems to focus almost entirely around rejuv & wild growth (with a mana cost reduction to rejuv and a cooldown reduction on wild growth). I suppose I’m okay with this, since it fixes the problem that we were having with not really having a good raid healing strategy at all. While this feels an aweful lot like history repeating all over again, that’s not the focus of this post. The focus of this post is a look at how the 4.0.6 talent changes may effect how we choose talents, with Efflorescence & Living Seed being the most likely candidate for hitting the chopping block from our talent specs.

The talent tree changes have me worried because I can’t come up with a talent build for 4.0.6 that I actually like, which is really unusual for me (but has become more common in Cataclysm).

The talent changes put more emphasis on 3 talents:

  • Malfurion’s Gift becomes even more important when it becomes the only way to get OOC procs.
  • Empowered Touch by adding the regrowth buff to the talent rather than to the base spell
  • Nature’s Bounty by adding the Nourish cast speed proc when we cast 3 rejuv’s in addition to the Regrowth crit bonus (with the regrowth crit bonus being better if the buff to Empowered Touch makes regrowth more desirable).

My current talent build skipped Malfurion’s Gift (mostly because I didn’t like the restrictions of what I could use for my OOC procs) and 1 point from Nature’s Bounty (because I needed the points more somewhere else). So, I need to come up with 3 talent points from somewhere else to be able to have a decent talent spec.

There are really 2 viable spec alternatives I can think of to fill out those extra talent points:

Either I can drop Nature’s Swiftness, Nature’s Cure, and 1 point from GotEM and end up with this spec. Or, I can drop Efflorescence & Living Seed and end up with something similar to this spec . The nice thing about the second spec is it really gives you more flexibility about where to invest the remaining 6 talent points you freed up (so I would expect a couple different variations on the second build, whereas the first build has basically no flexibility and requires you to make difficult sacrifices).

I really don’t like the idea of having to drop a point from GotEM or Nature’s Cure, so I’m seriously tempted to go with a talent build that drops living seed & Efflorescence from my talent builds. Why? Well, because living seed & Efflorescence are linked talents that aren’t really worth a full 6 talent points. They only account for about 5% (or less) of my total healing done in either 5-mans or raids, and the healing they do is really minor (ie. shouldn’t make the difference between life & death).

On the other hand, freeing up talent points to invest in Nature’s Cure means that I can cleanse in the 5-man groups I run, and I get the option of picking up talents like Perseverance, which can increase my own survivability.

This whole talent dilemma would be easily solved if they buffed Living Seed to make it worth the 3 talent points, or if they unlinked living seed from Efflorescence – so that we got to make a choice about whether or not we wanted living seed. For 25-man raid healers, efflorescence might still be worth picking up. However, I think it isn’t worthwhile anymore for 5-man or 10-man healing (where sacrificing tools like Nature’s Cure is really not a great idea unless you can have 2 resto specs). I really think they should have buffed Living Seed and not Nature’s Bounty in the latest round of talent changes, because at least then those points in Living Seed would have felt worthwhile, allowing us to justify holding onto Efflorescence.

So, what do you guys plan to do about talent builds in 4.0.6? Keep Efflorescence or drop Efflorescence & living seed to pick up other talents and increase your talent spec flexibility overall?

65 Comments

  1. Ben
    Posted January 12, 2011 at 1:57 am | Permalink

    Yeah I had completely dropped natures bounty in my 4.0.3 spec, but if that’s got to come back, then efflo seems like the one to go! For varations on the second build, Blessing of the Grove would be an obvious choice, with the increased focus on rejuv, but also it might be an excuse to play around with Fury of Stormrage, especially while we are working on Chimaeron!

  2. Baihu
    Posted January 12, 2011 at 2:21 am | Permalink

    It looks like it’s also goodbye to rolling more than 1 LB out of ToL form.

    “Empowered Touch now also affects Regrowth. In addition, after Tree of Life is no longer active, this talent will only refresh the most recently cast or refreshed Lifebloom, and will not refresh other copies of Lifebloom.”

    Sad really, because that was quite a commitment if we wanted to keep it up on fights like Ascendant Council and it was something that set apart the decent and the good Druids out there IMO. As the PTR stands now I will most likely be dropping Efflorescence and LS… rolling Rejuvs and a nice buff to WG means our more reliable forms of raid healing will be hots and then casting mastery bonused direct heals.

    • Lissanna
      Posted January 12, 2011 at 7:53 am | Permalink

      Being able to roll more than 1 LB was a bug that I knew they would fix eventually.

  3. Maven
    Posted January 12, 2011 at 2:30 am | Permalink

    I certainly havn’t finalized my builds – but my read is that there are going to be VERY different druid builds built for very different purposes.

    I raid 10 mans, and our group has a strong holy paly, a weak resto shaman, myself, and occasionally a holy priest who is relatively weak will sub for the shaman. Considering current costs and liabilities, our default response to localized heavy raid damage is for me to cover tanks while our holy paly assists the shaman – and our response to heavy universal raid damage is for me to ToL and all on raid while our holy paly puts the magic on keeping the tanks alive. Under boring normal damage situations, we are both tank healing/supporting raid healing as mana efficient while the other healer does raid healing. For a situation like mine, I could possibly lose efflorescence, but absolutely never living seed. Living seed provides the time necessary for me to either go to nourish from healing touch, or to go from requesting cooldowns/losing a tank, to not when its the times that I am alone on tank healing. Living seed makes up a small amount of healing, but the predictability of it is SO huge I would never give up the talent. My new spec will drop Natures Swiftness, a point in revitalize, and one from gift of the earthmother.

    If i was in 25 mans, and doing mostly raid healing, I would never drop from GotEM, and would probably take fewer balance talents to afford it. Honestly, I really like our 4.0.6 tree, because I don’t feel like there are any talents in it that are truly wrong. Even natures ward could potentially be quite handy for fights with regular massive raid damage for setting up nourish at the cost of only 2 GCDs instead of 3. That one is obviously a stretch, but depending on how gear scales and how raid damage and encounter length scale, I could see it being possible.

  4. Posted January 12, 2011 at 2:39 am | Permalink

    I am deff dropping LS & Effl. in 4.0.6, the healing lost can quickly be recovered with a few extra rejuv’s on the raid + as you said those 6 extra points give a lot more flexibility in your build! I want to see how nature’s ward can help me so I’ll deff invest points there!

  5. Posted January 12, 2011 at 3:14 am | Permalink

    I won’t be able to fit Efflorescence in. It’s a real shame, because I want to use it.

  6. Darkalia
    Posted January 12, 2011 at 5:35 am | Permalink

    I very disappointed by the WG buff … Wrath over again it seems.
    And this nerf on keeping LB stacks on 2 tanks at a time is really sad considering the difficulty to keep them up AND follow the tactics correctly (completely agree with Baihu).

    As I am raiding 25 man, I think I’ll keep efflorescence and will likely end with a build without nature’s cure and a 2/3 GotEM. Efflorescence can be up to 10% of my healing on some fight (like magmaw) and it still a nice bonus. Although, as I’m raiding 25 man, there is more aoe heal and the burst of initial healing from rejuvenation is not as strong as in 10 man, so that’s why I’ll drop a point here. I may consider dropping another for Nature’s cure, as I really like to be able to cleanse everything around by myself even if I’m not the best choice for such a role in raid.

    Nature’s swiftness still not worth it without redesign so …

    I would have really like a buff of living seed and a mechanism for it to be our burst aoe heal … would have been a really nice buff of a useless talent.

  7. Sardoken
    Posted January 12, 2011 at 6:30 am | Permalink

    I am so happy to find back WG, I’ve missed it so much :D I really had lost all fun with efflorescence and stacking lifebloom.

    I think that we’re getting closer to the original idea of Blizz behind the talents revamp: many builds, many players, many situations and I believe that this is a good thing.
    6 extra points is a lot to play with… For my build, I’ll go for some nature’s ward.

  8. jarkun
    Posted January 12, 2011 at 6:33 am | Permalink

    I want to know why the change to Nature’s Bounty is “3 rejuv’s or nothing”, I think 1-rejuv should get me 10% haste, 2 for 20% and 3 for 30%. I prefer running 5-mans to raids and the talent would be alot more appealing if it scaled

  9. jarkun
    Posted January 12, 2011 at 7:03 am | Permalink

    Fyi, I claim that living seed is a ‘mandatory’ PVE talent. Just try to create a build without it! You can’t without specing perseverance or fury-of-stormrage….two talents I see as primary PVP abilities.

    I wonder if blizzard thinks LS is ok because they are being misled by their own data. Everyone takes it…so it must be ok :-)

    • Lissanna
      Posted January 12, 2011 at 7:58 am | Permalink

      Perserverence is something I’d like to argue is a pve talent (just one we don’t have the talent points to afford under normal circumstances). Being able to survive longer can be important in many situations, and taking less damage means that you need less healing. Given that most damage done to you in instances is spell AOE damage, I think it could be useful.

      I wouldn’t take 3 points in Living Seed without putting at least 1 point in Efflorescence… because efflorescence does more healing for me in any instance than Living Seed does. If they would just unlink LS & Efflo, then we could pick up Efflo and LS would be given up more often to pick up more important things.

  10. Posted January 12, 2011 at 8:03 am | Permalink

    Leave it to the blues to butter us up with great stuff before dropping a whopper…

    Rage incoming:

    •Tree of Life no longer grants immunity to Polymorph. In addition, its duration has been reduced to 25 seconds, down from 30.

    Wait for it…wait for it…it’s coming….5….4….3….2….1….breathe….and….

    ARLGJAIWEOAJHKGELJAOEIFJAWLEIKJFAWLEIAWEPOWCMVWPOIEAJL:KEAARRGGHHHHHALWIEFJAS DFJ!!!!!!!!!!!!111111one

    Deep breath.

    So, I chance a cooldown in PVP only to have it removed by a mage that already has 23823948739 CCs available to them against me? Shapeshifts are just that, SHAPES SHIFTED. It’s bad enough that the ACT of shapeshifting no longer removes polymorphs, now they just nerfed the resto druid’s ONLY viable shapeshift in pvp (and no I don’t count cheetah form). And that’s on top of reducing the duration. And there’s just NO WAY they can say “well ToL was a bit OP in pvp” because it SO not. If anything I switched back to the old treeform so I wasn’t this huge afrobroccoli that everyone could easily target and kill because let’s face it, if you roll up into TB or BG as a big ol’ tree…you’re the FIRST to die, PERIOD. Now they just ASSURED our deaths, and our viability in PVP.

    So let’s recap shall we, just so you know I’m not just ranting out my ass:
    1. They took away our treeform and made it a cooldown. Ok, so be it they made it WORTH using the cooldown by structuring the spells the way they are, however…
    2. They took away our polymorph immunity by forcing us to be in caster form 90% of the time.
    3. The ACT of shifting does NOT free us from being polymorphed.
    4. ToL will now be reduced to 25, plus 6 if fully talented, but can now be dispelled completely via polymorph
    5. All of our snares have been reduced to 8 seconds (thanks to Paragon for that because of their now famous druid stacking on their heroic Nefarion kill…granted, this is ALL forms of snares from all classes, but still a nerf nevertheless on something that pretty much saves a resto druid’s butt sometimes).

    Which results in this…
    Other healers were prone to snares and polymorphs, yes, now we’re with them. BUT think about all the OTHER stuff they have that we don’t.
    1. Mana burn.
    2. Offensive magic dispells
    3. Bubbles
    4. Melee-attacked based procs that either increase our casting speed, or decrease knockback and encourage casting focus, not to mention damage reduction outside of barkskin (which is dispellable)
    5. Spell reflect abilities
    6. An undispellable mana-regain talent (shadowfiend, totem, etc)
    Now consider this, as an example, for a Disc Priest with one of their new changes: “In addition to Strength of Soul’s existing effects, when Power Word: Shield is placed on oneself, the priest becomes immune to silence, interrupt, and dispel effects for 2/4 seconds.” Now imagine they bubble and then pop hymn for mana, on TOP shadowfiend. And all we have is innervate (dispellable).

    So since our main healing cooldown has now been made easily removed by mages and shaman, specifically, they’ve now removed one of the major things that made pvp resto druids fun and challenging to face. They weren’t unkillable before, but they were definitely a challenge, and with the current mana changes for healers, they were already facing a challenge to remain viable in pvp, and now it just seems they’ve pushed our our afrobroccoli heads further into the sand.

    Also consider this…With a fullset of the lowerend pvp gear, and gems for resilience, I’m sitting above 3K for resilience, which is good for a smidge above 30% damage reduction from players. EVEN WITH THAT, being stunlocked by a subrogue with their DPS buffs they’ve received and I’m essentially dead in five seconds when my cooldowns aren’t up. And WITH cooldowns, unless there’s a melee stun available I can’t root them or cyclone them (cloak of shadows) so all they do is eat up my Nature’s grasp charges, and still burn me through barkskin, treeform, and 30% damage redux. But for the most part, treeform will save me if there’s someone else there to help me, but now it’s removable. Thanks, Blues.

    I know Lissanna, that you don’t like “gloom and doom” posts, but I can’t see this major change as anything but. Seriously…even if we tried to drink this kool-aid and told ourselves “okay, this is fair, it makes us like other healers” didn’t it ever occur to anyone that this homogenization of healing is literally KILLING pvp healing diversity even more than it already has in PVE? Because druids don’t need to be like other healers, any more than priests or shaman or holy pallys. We all had different things that made us a challenge, and all they’ve done is essentially nerf the things that made us unique. But with these changes, I can’t help but think that now druids will be bumped down this optimal pvp lists for arena in favor of classes with more tools like dispells and damage mitigation (we’ve already discussed ad nauseum how HoT healing now has been rendered useless in damage mitigation with the amounts of damage players and NPCs put out).

    That said…yay for the WG buff! Er, we’ll see if it actually helps. But a buff’s a buff I suppose :|

    • Deandre - Dalaran
      Posted January 12, 2011 at 9:05 am | Permalink

      First thing to touch on, PvP snares are being reduced to 8 seconds according to the patch note, I didn’t see anything about a change intended for PvE.

      Second, first cast of Polymorph will only have an 8 second duration, so diminishing returns will wipe that out pretty quick. So losing the Poly immunity isn’t as end of the world, but with the shorter duration it does definitely stuck, especially for any decent arena team that knows how to chain different diminishing return CCs on someone. Hex is in the same boat as Polymorph for duration.

      • Taiyri - Magtheridon
        Posted January 13, 2011 at 4:28 pm | Permalink

        And to amend on to Deandre’s comments, the first line of the druid changes in the complete patch notes on the World of Warcraft website reads, and I quote: “Barkskin is no longer dispellable.”

  11. Rivellana
    Posted January 12, 2011 at 8:28 am | Permalink

    I think I’ve settled on going from the 8/2/31 spec that I have now to a 2/3/36 spec, dropping the mana reducing talents in the balance tree. I’m still not sure about it but there were so many things that I wanted in the resto tree now I am going to try it out and hope that the mana reductions and increased effectiveness of my healing spells balance out the mana cost reduction that I was getting from the balance talent previously.

    On the PvP front, reply to the poster above me…yeah it’s not really sounding that good for pvp. I can still stay alive for quite awhile and I don’t have anywhere near as much resilience as you do but they’re definitely making it way less fun. In any case, I have decided to level my horde resto shaman up to pvp with exclusively…it’ll be a nice change when I don’t want to be resto druid pvp’ing.

    • Kuhbus
      Posted January 12, 2011 at 10:51 am | Permalink

      with WG (buff: +30% heal and 8sec CD) being used a lot more the mana-reduce talents are mandatory in my opinion!
      best would be to remove the link of Seed and Eflo!
      not knowing the numbers exactly i would prefer seed over preservance because castin more nourishes (natures bounty faster casts) causes more seed procs :-)
      an the seeds are a bit better due to the mastery buff (+15% if i’m right)

      • Lissanna
        Posted January 12, 2011 at 11:38 am | Permalink

        At this point, living seed is doing around 1% of my healing done total… I really see living seed & efflorescence as kindof being an “all or nothing” deal. Either I’ll take both, or I’ll take neither out of protest so that they have to fix the problem. You only get seeds when you crit, so at earlier gear levels, it’s not really that good of a talent. At later gear levels (when our crit is higher & we don’t need mana talents as much), I’d invest back in it again.

        • SuperCrunk
          Posted January 12, 2011 at 4:49 pm | Permalink

          Completely agree, http://www.wowhead.com/talent#0hbhZMZMfuhdcrzouo will be what I rock for raids, pvp and 5 mans. I see perseverance as the new one to pick up and Eff/LS out the window till they are inevitably buffed back into being useful like Malf’s just was.

          I do however question which glyphs to now use for the major slots since innervate is being changed (from what I have heard, have yet to see a confirmed blue post) to only being castable on ourselves. I’m hoping the glyph is modified to add more regen or some kind of haste/spell power buff, anything along those lines would get me using it for PvE and PvP. Right now I use Rebirth, WG and Roots for healing in PvE, switching out rebirth for barkskin in PvP. I find myself only using the innervate glyph as moonkin for healers and pretty pointless even then since going oom as a moonkin is very rare. Maybe I’m missing something, but our glyphs seem in need of a massive overhaul to supplement these changes.

    • Posted January 12, 2011 at 4:18 pm | Permalink

      Rivellana, that is the same path I’m going to try first. Nature’s Majesty helps keep crit up for Living Seed procs. My guild is currently running 5-man heroics and won’t transition to 10-man raids for a couple more weeks. But, my guildies have been trained to ‘stand in the green’ (when they need extra heals) when I do put out Efflorescence so that one works well for me.

      I have a had time justifying so many points in the balance tree for what amounts to so little value when trying to pick up Moonglow or Genesis.

    • Hermilla
      Posted January 13, 2011 at 12:56 am | Permalink

      I switched to a 2/3/36 build when my mana issues were sorted out with better gear. I can’t really comment on 25man raid healing, but for 5/10man runs this build has worked well for me.

  12. Kuhbus
    Posted January 12, 2011 at 10:58 am | Permalink

    recent patchnotes summary:
    rejuv: mana 26% to 16%
    OOC: linked to malfurions gift for helpful spells
    empowerd touch: includes regrowth
    shapeshifter: max 6 sec plus on ToL
    natures bounty: nourish cast time -10/20/30% with 3 rejuvs up
    symbiosis (mastery): +16%
    ToL: reduced to 25 sec
    WG: heal +30% CD reduced to 8sec (from 10)

  13. Tuethis
    Posted January 12, 2011 at 11:41 am | Permalink

    When I play around with the calculator I cant find a way to avoid living seed without having to pick up survivability or dps talents. Since I think that at low gear levels throughput and regen outweigh survivability and dps, I’m going to end up with 3 pts in LS. At that point you might as well take effluorescence since that is the main reason to get LS in the first place. Basically this change takes furor off the table and forces me to choose between NS and Swift rejuv. Both are sort of “wrath talents” if you know what i mean so II’ll just decide what feels right once the patch hits.

    Good bye furor, healing tools are more important to me than a mana buff, I’ll eat some +spi food if I have mana problems on a fight.

  14. Evett
    Posted January 12, 2011 at 11:46 am | Permalink

    Although I am still undecided what I shall drop/pick up, right now I’ve been looking at dropping Nature’s Cure and Revitalize. I want to keep Eflo(and thus seed) for sure, it comes in handy when i run 25 man raids. By dropping Revitalize, I’d be able to pick up Malfurion’s Gift. The 2% chance to get mana back just doesn’t seem worth it, and since I’ve picked up better gear mana isn’t a huge issue anymore. Granted I still try to conserve mana, but I don’t think I’ll start having greater mana issues if I drop that one. By dropping Nature’s Cure, I’d add a third point to Nature’s Bounty.
    Of course, I’m still not certain how well this will turn out. I might miss Revitalize more than i think. By doing this I’ll keep my 8/2/31 spec and not drop some talents I know I’ll miss.

  15. Wynn
    Posted January 12, 2011 at 11:48 am | Permalink

    I’m skipping Moonglow for more points in the resto tree.

    I’m a huge fan of Nature’s Ward and use it as my mana saving talent in pve, in raids and heroics it lets me get bang around some and not having to deal with healing myself. I know my spec is not cookie cutter but it’s been working for me

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/black-dragonflight/taiboku/talent/primary

    • Posted January 12, 2011 at 12:00 pm | Permalink

      “I know my spec is not cookie cutter but it’s been working for me.”

      That’s really the point at the very root of the trees and what Lissanna has been saying with regards to the utility points. You find what works for you and what makes playing fun for you. :D

    • Lissanna
      Posted January 12, 2011 at 1:57 pm | Permalink

      I would still put a full 3 points in Furor if you don’t plan to take Moonglow. :)

  16. Posted January 12, 2011 at 12:16 pm | Permalink

    I’d love to be able to drop Living Seed, without Efflorescence and I do hope they decouple them at some point. As it is now though, dropping both would give me an extra 6 points to spend in the resto tree which is way more than I think I need. I only need 1 – maybe 3 if I want to pick up Blessing of the Grove too, so it seems like a big waste.

    I will be keeping Efflorescence, it can make up a big chunk of healing in 25s and our AoE healing is a little lacking without it. I will probably drop a point in Moonglow to pick up my last point in Nature’s Bounty.

    I think dropping Nature’s Cure is a terrible idea.

    • Lissanna
      Posted January 12, 2011 at 1:57 pm | Permalink

      Yeah. The problem is that I want efflorescence, but I want to be able to drop Living Seed to get it. Living seed & efflorescence don’t even go together – Living Seed works best right now for tank healing where you are healing single-target on someone where they are likely to make use of the seed proc. On the other hand, Efflorescence is obviously an AOE healing tool, and having the two tied together makes our talent builds super awkward. Linking unrelated talents just takes away “choice” from talent decisions. I don’t get the choice of taking Efflorescence for my healing build without having to spend 6 points on a 3 point talent.

      • Kuhbus
        Posted January 13, 2011 at 2:59 am | Permalink

        my point was that, with using nourish a lot more with the new rejuv mechanic on heavy aoe dmg phases seed probably gets more useful in terms of troughput. today i almost never use nourish because the 10k heal is simply not worth the 2 second cast time.
        i think rotation could be WG – 3x jejuv – nourish spamming (1.4sec casttime) WG … rejuv refresh and so on… i expect the amount of seed heals will improve compared to now!

        • Posted January 13, 2011 at 5:06 am | Permalink

          Wow…I mean, just. Wow.

          Whatever works for you, works for you.

          But Nourish is like my number TWO spell. LB-Nourish-HT in that order with everything else on a situational as-needed basis. Nourish spamming is like your auto-hit heal. For one, it’s a heal on your LB target that not only KEEPS LB on that target, but because of LB gets a boost from mastery (my Nourish with my current level of mastery hits for 12-14K and crits for 15-16).

          If you aren’t using Nourish, you’re actually hurting yourself in terms of mana-efficiency. And if you feel you don’t have a problem with that, well, then just think how even EASIER it would be if you used it more.

  17. Capn
    Posted January 12, 2011 at 12:29 pm | Permalink

    I too will be changing my spec, since I’m running mostly 5 mans at the moment and my guild hasn’t started raiding yet. I really like Eff, but unless they buff it or cut it loose from living seed I’ll sadly give up the new toy. I don’t understand why blizzard gave us new healing mechanics of “standing in the good” and then make them not worth the talent points compared to other talents. Shamans get healing rain as a trainable spell. I think druids should get Efflorescence the same way. Then we’d just have the choice to take living seed or not.

  18. Araquen
    Posted January 12, 2011 at 2:03 pm | Permalink

    What, wait…so the net result is we need to opt out of the only new healing spell we got in order to go back to Wrath healing, just more mana inefficiently?

    *sigh*

  19. Mark
    Posted January 12, 2011 at 2:09 pm | Permalink

    Sigh. I’m gonna missing Efflo. I’ve been trying to keep it because I just love having more tools in the box, but it’s cost in sacrificed talents is just too high now. I hope this is temporary and it doesn’t go the way of the dodo.

  20. Toops
    Posted January 12, 2011 at 7:06 pm | Permalink

    Efflo is still vital for some fights where everyone need to clump up or for groups like melee on certain fights. For other fights however it does goes to waste, even if the initial heal from swiftmend does the trick.

    I just have to point out that while priest’s Prayer of Healing is outperforming our Wild Growth, I feel it’s unfair to nerf theirs but then buff ours. I am a resto druid (Mainframe EU Kul Tiras) and have been monitoring healing for 25-mans. As stated Prayer of Healing makes up a huge proportion of priest heals (depending ofc on the fight), and their second-place spell is quite some distance behind.

    For me WG/Rejuv/LB/HT account for roughly the same for me on meters – I don’t use Nourish as I don’t see the point in it other than to refresh LB (and I can afford to use HT as I have 2 321 intell trinkets and JC Intell gems with constant 400 spirit from Darkmoon). We don’t need a buff to WG, it’s pure and simple.
    It’s basically making an already fairly powerful healing class (in the right hands for I can’t understand how some resto druids are complaining so much tbh) even more powerful, especially when you consider how bad resto shamans are atm, especially in fights such as the Ascendant Council. I really do feel sorry for shamans as I’ve been healing with some of the best shammy healers I have ever met, and their healing now compared to priests/holy paladins and resto druids is truly awful.

    We must not become complacent and let us simply spam WG – as many used to do. I think this is an unnecessary buff especially considering the nerf to PoH which should in theory bring it in line with WG as it presently stands.

    • Krazeymom
      Posted January 13, 2011 at 4:15 am | Permalink

      Being in a guild that is about to start heroic modes in raids, and talking non-stop to members who are already attempting heroic modes; I think dropping Efflorence is a bad idea. With the amount of raid damage that is going around right now those aoe heals (as little as they are) can turn into a saving healing. Even the fights where you have to spread out it is still 8 yards between one side of the circle to the other in a cross like pattern.

      I, myself, are more contemplating just droping 2 from Moonglow or dropping it all together and picking up all 3 in furor. In the higher gear levels mana if used correctly combined with the Darkmoon card, and Tyrande’s Doll give alot of mana return back. I have yet to have any major mana problems in raids with this trink combo and well timed innervates.

    • Posted January 13, 2011 at 5:21 am | Permalink

      The nerf to PoH came because people – believe it or not – are actually USING lightwell again. They wanted to balance out the group heal spells according. Having both a group HoT in lightwell with a powerful direct heal made Holy Priests a little OP in terms of group healing.

      Also, in my opinion, I wouldn’t encourage people to NOT use nourish. You’ve explained that because you’re sufficiently geared you can get away with that, but nourish – when used properly – is a great mana-saving and efficient spell. I don’t understand people’s discontent with it’s current cast time. I mean, it’s cost is so minimal that by the time I’ve popped it off, I’ve already regained the mana it cost halfway through my next cast of it. It’s just a natural part of a tank-healing (specifically speaking) rotation where I just keep casting it and my mana doesn’t move by the time I start to need a bigger heal, and even then once I’ve used a bigger heal I go back to nourish and regain that time and mana back. Needless to say, I’m definitely PRO-nourish (which is funny because back in the Wrath days, I was very ANTI-nourish).

  21. Iggloovortex
    Posted January 13, 2011 at 3:40 am | Permalink

    As im sure you prolly dont read the comments anyways (lol). Im keeping both of those talents.
    In fact, you are welcome to check out my spec in the armory, my Character is Iggloovortex. and im the only one so it wont be hard to find me. i have confidence in my current spec and it is geared more towards the insta-heals and lowered cast time spells (ie nourish after 3 rejuvs). Well idk what your final plan will be, but it would please me if you atleast gave me a look :D. i’d feel special

    • Lissanna
      Posted January 13, 2011 at 9:39 am | Permalink

      I actually do read every single comment posted on my blog. :)

      I do like putting up controversial posts (like this one) that are designed to get people talking, so I can see what direction the community is likely to go in after the patch (which in turn helps me write better guides).

      • Iggloovortex
        Posted January 13, 2011 at 7:21 pm | Permalink

        Well then! in that case ill let you know i plan to drop Nature’s Grace, in favor of having all the healing talents i need. once again geared more towards the insta-heals

      • Iggloovortex
        Posted January 13, 2011 at 7:23 pm | Permalink
        • Lissanna
          Posted January 13, 2011 at 9:27 pm | Permalink

          yeah, that seems to be option #3 in addition to the 2 I posted in my blog post earlier.

  22. Posted January 13, 2011 at 5:25 am | Permalink

    And the hits just keep on coming (as of 13Jan patch notes):

    •Shapeshifts: Entering or leaving a shapeshift no longer cancels root effects. It continues to cancel movement slowing effects.

    SERIOUSLY?!

    Seriously. *Queue the biggest /EYEROLL in the history of me*

    Is there even a reason to be a PVP Resto Druid anymore?

    • Posted January 13, 2011 at 5:27 am | Permalink

      Oh, looks like there is:

      •Tree of Life Polymorph immunity change reverted

      LOL. Oi, thank god. I’ll swallow the root-shifting change because they gave me back my tree.

    • Rivellana
      Posted January 13, 2011 at 9:14 am | Permalink

      Yeah…I saw that and “WHAT?!?” came flying out of my mouth. One of the ONLY major strengths of pvp’ing on my resto druid was being able to shapeshift out of whatever and keep going, especially while flag carrying. So if another druid wants to chain root us, or, even worse..a frost mage wants to frost nova (deep freeze, ice lance, ice lance, ice lance = DEAD) us, we’re screwed. They just took away the ENTIRE meaning of being a druid in pvp.

      I’m glad they reverted the polymorph immunity in tree form but honestly, I’d rather be able to be poly’d in tree than being facerolled by a frost mage who has no skill and can’t play any class but the most OP one because Blizzard took away our signature ability to shift out of bad stuff.

  23. Aulisemia
    Posted January 13, 2011 at 5:37 am | Permalink

    How about something that looks more like http://www.wowhead.com/talent#00bZcZrfzIdcruouo ?

    Nature’s Grace seems like a really nice spell, but for a 25% uptime on a spell (Regrowth) that I actively try to avoid using unless under an OOC proc or a desperate heal – seems a bit of a waste.

    No Moonglow? I don’t do tip-top cutting edge progression raiding, so fighting desperately to keep my mana pool alive for the last 2% of a boss fight where every healer is gassed isn’t a huge issue for me. Most of the raid content I’ve dealt with has been challenging for minding my mana but I don’t feel like I’m being held back by that missing 9%. Likely just my situation and absolutely required for Heroics.

    I’m also somewhat assuming that 4.0.6 will be a little ways off – your gear should be quite a bit better by then. Might that give you some incentive to dump Moonglow and keep Efflorescence?

  24. thehampster
    Posted January 13, 2011 at 8:53 am | Permalink

    While Living Seed definitely needs a buff, I’m not sure if it’s worth dropping for two reason. First, it augments our RG spell, which is our emergency heal. So while LS’s overall numbers are low, I like having it there when I need to heal a tank or dps very fast. Second, since RG is getting buffed, LS will therefore be healing for a bit more as well.

    What is more important in PVE: a slight reduction is spell damage taken on us, or a talent that augments our only fast and strong heal? Since I find myself using RG even more often in PVP, it’s not a terrible talent for bg’s either (although probably not optimal for a 2v2 or 3v3 arena spec).

    • Lissanna
      Posted January 14, 2011 at 9:26 am | Permalink

      Honestly, for me at this point, not dieing in raids as much would be really great, lol.

      • Darkalia
        Posted January 14, 2011 at 12:17 pm | Permalink

        I would like to know the fights were you have issues staying alive cause i’m roughtly to 6/12 so far (25 man only) and I didn’t see such encounter yet. Barkskin is pretty much up all the time it’s needed for me and it is enough.

        Maybe it’s a “bad” habit of me but instead of wasting my rejuv and an efflorescence on someone not properly placed (as often damn dps tend to do yet), I rejuv myself before the AOE spells then throw the swiftmend on me after 1-2 seconds of it. I know it result in overhealing and it is a waste but I did found only this solution to be sure the circle is well placed. Being mark with star all the fight and the classical “STACK on STAR” is still not enough.

        I sometimes use another healer though if they are too low.

  25. Kayeri
    Posted January 13, 2011 at 10:00 am | Permalink

    I haven’t yet decided, as I want to see the final cut of what goes live before I decide. I am also going to have a talk with my guild leader about what I am really needed for. These changes might be what puts restos back into a raid healing job, which is something we’ve lacked the tools for since Cata hit. Last night, I was put on raid heals in spite of my lack of tools. So what, if any, changes I make to my spec are really going to depend on what the guild needs me for more. I will also float the possibility of doing a double resto spec and giving up the boomie spec, but I don’t expect that to be accepted. I was the primary switch-hitter as we went through ICC, but switch=hitting hasn’t really been needed yet this early in our raiding in Cata.

  26. Heike
    Posted January 13, 2011 at 12:34 pm | Permalink

    Unless things change significantly on the ptr, I’m in the losing living seed and efflor camp. I’ll start off with a 10/31 build, picking up 3 points in moonglow first and see how I do without furor – and if I don’t have mana issues I might actually try to sneak the 3rd point into genesis.

    I am super sad to lose efflorescence because I liked the mechanic and idea of it, but it just doesn’t feel worth the point investment and it’s current strength. And I’m really happy to be able to use my HoT tools a lot more.

  27. Posted January 13, 2011 at 3:47 pm | Permalink

    Okay I keep trying to stay positive about the Cata changes, but let me tell you they are making it hard. The only new spell they gave us is bacally becomeing useless. . .AWESOME!!!!
    So I Guess it is back to SPAM REJUVE?
    What next are they going to Give DPS back their big AOEs and the tanks their AOE Threat?
    WRATH 2.0 here we come.

    On a positive note I won’t have to tell everyone that it is okay to stand in the green circle anymore.

    • Lissanna
      Posted January 13, 2011 at 4:58 pm | Permalink

      Efflorescence is useful. However, it costs too many points, and Living Seed is really the problem talent. If Living Seed & Efflorescence were not linked together (or if Living Seed was buffed), then basically any talent build would want efflorescence. It seems to be that about half the people responding are in favor of keeping Efflorescence & Living seed in their current builds, and half the people are not keeping them.

      The problem is that this AOE talent should be something everyone needs, and Blizzard is making it too hard for us to get it. Other people get to make choices about “fun” talents, whereas we get to make choices about “mandatory” talents, which feels more like traps than choices. In some ways, I’m being overly dramatic about it just because it makes me mad that I have to make that choice in the first place.

      • Zy
        Posted January 13, 2011 at 8:38 pm | Permalink

        Agreed. The resto druid tree still has what, 43 possible places to put points? In comparison the resto shaman tree has 41 and I’m making choice between a mana neutral talent like Telluric Currents or Ancestral Resolve vs Blessing of the Eternals. I don’t have to choose between basic mechanics, only flavor. There’s a world of difference between the two trees. I haven’t played my paladin much but her holy tree looks pretty similar to the shaman’s in function, as do both of the healing trees on the new priest I am leveling.

      • Tralia
        Posted January 14, 2011 at 7:00 am | Permalink

        This is been my problem with the Druid Trees since Beta. Very rarely ( in fact I never have) do we make a choice between fun talent X and fun talent Y, we are constantly choosing between what we need and what we need less. I’m not really sure why Blizzard hasn’t done something about this, but I’m hoping when they see a very large chunk of the community opting out of the one new heal we got they will finally unlink them.

        Right now I don’t see myself taking Efflo because its far too many points wasted ( If I was running 25 mans I might still grab it and run two resto specs)

    • Rivellana
      Posted January 14, 2011 at 8:10 am | Permalink

      Even just doing a few raids myself and looking at logs from some other resto druids, I can see that even now that the top three spells for healing done are rejuvenation, lifebloom, and wild growth in some order. I’m actually really looking forward to this patch hitting live because rejuvenation is killing my mana right now and since they’re not hurting us they’re only INCREASING the effectiveness of our rejuvenation and wild growth in this patch I can’t see anything bad about it. I’m not “blanketing” rejuvenation and it’s still doing a ton of healing, this patch will actually make it easier on us.

  28. Posted January 14, 2011 at 12:44 pm | Permalink

    I don’t see changes to my build incoming with this patch; I’ll be sticking with my current 2/3/36 build that I tweaked off your survivability one (removed swift rejuv, extra point in perseverance).

    I don’t have Malfurion’s gift currently, and that change is not likely to make me pick it up. I like OOC but even now in its allegedly-much-proccing-ness, I don’t use it very much. The survival talents are more useful to me…I’ll just stack more spirit if I have to to counter the un-saved-OOC-mana.

    Put me in the “keeping LS / Efflo” category. I would like them to be unlinked just because, as you point out, it’s silly to have two completely different-category spells (tank / AOE) tied together…but I’d probably still take both of them even if they weren’t linked.

    • Lance Johnson
      Posted January 15, 2011 at 4:49 pm | Permalink

      Alright, I am probably speaking out of idiocy, but I find that although I don’t think the two together are as useful as should be, but they do have a nice effect in the fact that in the experiences that I have had so far in Cata, I am seeing alot more melee dps in the form of feral druids, rogues are making their way back into the mix, warriors, paladins, and enh shamans, which all have to be in melee range. Along with WG, it is becoming almost habit to hit the tank with the big heal of SM and get the added bonus to the melee dps surrounding him to get the efflorescence. I could be completely wrong on this subject, but to say that they are completely unrelated is almost unfair. I would like to see efflorescence in it’s own setting, maybe not even in the Talent Tree, just as a spell that we can use, but to say that it has nothing to do with it, being that more and more, the role of a Resto Druid is for MT/OT healing purposes in raiding enviroment, having that, albeit small, bonus to the melee dps in the vicinity is making my 5 man’s easier.

      Drravenn
      Mannoroth
      Talledaga Knights

  29. TheBoognish
    Posted January 15, 2011 at 7:21 pm | Permalink

    Please forgive the tardness, I am not able to keep up as well as most with the changes.

    So lemme get this right. I spend every playing moment I have learning the new role I am sposed to fill. I adopt the roll LB/rejuv/swiftmend to get eff on the tank and melee, then tell ranged to get out of fire or else, cast wg on tarded dps that cant read. rinse/repeat. Go ToL and roll LB on everyone i can and wear a hole in my mouse casting nourishes to keep them up durring heavy AOE. I finally start to feel comfy and am getting it (so much to where I give another resto guildie a glimmer of hope that he can keep up with the pallyheals pwning us). I feel pretty good about my growth. I never said “OOM all the time blizz! WTF?” I learned the new deal.
    Then Blizz comes along with “lol guise! we herp the derp. Go back to rejuv/wg/nourish spam. L8r!”
    L8r indeed blizz. Why keep this up? Oh, because we are sitting ducks in pvp in either spec (which reminds me, wtf is a “kitty” :P)

    WARNING: TLDNR should ignore, i am ranting now. Sorry, im in queue on a sat night going on 36 mins right now, all my quests are done and I literally have NOTHING else to do in game on this toon.

    Lis? I love you. I have read more about my class from you than any other. You have taught me more about how to just play the game than anything other than just playing the game. I don’t want to QQ all over your headstrong will to keep the dream alive but, I am about done with this. I feel like we as healers and lazarchikins are treated as second class classes (?). I like our new heal, I was using it quite well I thought. Now I go back to old school heals with no new hotness and no way to keep up with the pally I am constantly chasing?
    Disheartened and rolling a worgen warrior. I’m sorry. I think I give up on this.

  30. Hawkey
    Posted January 17, 2011 at 6:52 am | Permalink

    And what about this build http://www.wowhead.com/talent#0hrhZZrfzudcrzouo. Stronger rejuv (8%) and 9% reduced spell cost in exchange for 15% mana pool and efflorence.

  31. Underrated
    Posted January 17, 2011 at 1:21 pm | Permalink

    Great post. My take on it would be to keep Efflorescence and drop GotEM completely. I would drop 2 points in it and put them into Nature’s Bounty. The remaining one point makes the talent really unnoticeable, so I may even drop that and re-take Nature’s Swiftness (which I don’t have in my current build). Efflorescence is not the shiniest thing in our repertoire, however if you raid with a competent group that is very ranged heavy and yet, knows how to stack together when the encounter allows, the spell is a very cheap and easy way to put some healing on the targets. Furthermore if the melee are nicely stacked up, efflorescence does wonders. I have no idea what it is like in 25 man but in 10 man, I always feel like I get my mana’s worth out of it.
    GotEM on the other hand, I am not so sure about. The instant 15% heal of Rejuv is really nothing that special with the Cata health pools and the kind of damage that people are taking. As far as the increased Lifebloom heal, who ever really lets their Lifebloom pop? I only let mine go off of the tank if the raid is taking some heavy damage and need to focus on them, or when I am Lifeblooming everything in Tree Form and then subsequently let some fall off. Regardless, it is far more situational than Efflorescence IMHO. Therefore, out goes GotEM and in comes Nature’s Bounty. Efflorescence isn’t going anywhere.

  32. Triv
    Posted January 17, 2011 at 1:24 pm | Permalink

    Since we will be using Rej/WG much more in the future I am thinking I will go with a variation on the 8/2/31 build to maximize the potential of Rej and the longevity of my mana pool since i am still nowhere near as efficient as I used to be. I dropped the points from LS and Efflo since LS makes up so little of my healing and I will now be using WG on it’s better CD along with Rej Spam and Nourish.

    To be honest with you I felt that stacking 3 LS then constantly monitoring to keep it up whilst spamming Nourish was much more of a tedious chore than Wraths rolling HoT’s. In Wrath I could have fun with changing out how I wanted to heal someone and felt like I had some reserve power in my Nourish and HT spells along with RG. I freak out now when i see more than one person take major damage that requires quick majors heals or death because I know that most likely one will die and I can do nothing to prevent it.

    Here is to hoping that we can actually use our HoT’s as buffers again.

    http://www.wowhead.com/talent#0hbhZMZrfzhdcrzkuo

    • Triv
      Posted January 17, 2011 at 1:42 pm | Permalink

      Though I may drop Furor in favor of Genesis.. it all depends on my efficiency I suppose. Buffing HoT’s by 4% is nothing at all to sneeze at. 8% to Rej plus our other bonus talents that went to waste before we could actually afford Rej makes me quite happy.

  33. TonyKP
    Posted January 18, 2011 at 1:23 am | Permalink

    - So, what do you guys plan to do about talent builds in 4.0.6? Keep Efflorescence or drop Efflorescence & living seed to pick up other talents and increase your talent spec flexibility overall? -

    My plan is to continue to avoid healing until this game-wide de facto extended Beta ends and things settle down into the more normal ebb and flow of evolutionary changes that come at a non-hurried pace. 4.1, I suspect. At the moment there are too many fundamental play-style changes coming too often (and not just with my druids).

    • Lissanna
      Posted January 18, 2011 at 12:04 pm | Permalink

      Change is part of what makes the game fun, because it’s always new & interesting. we get bored when nothing changes in our MMO’s. :)

      Honestly, the 4.0.6 patch won’t have a huge impact on our actual healing playstyle. It mostly has an impact on how we choose our talents.

      • TonyKP
        Posted January 18, 2011 at 2:29 pm | Permalink

        I don’t mind change, I’d just rather wait until things are settled a bit before taking the time to relearn/gem/spec/equip/etc…

        Doesn’t help that I’m an alt-a-holic and have a bunch of different toons that need all that relearning/speccing/gemming/equipping/etc…

2 Trackbacks