Replacing Living Seed: Talents in 4.1

So, the 4.1 patch actually has some important changes that  may influence how you choose your restoration talents. Regardless of your role or size of raid, you will want the new version of Efflorescence in your talent spec – so, in some cases, the variability in talent specs may converge somewhat (with people wanting to avoid living seed but invest in efflorescence). However,  there will still be subtle differences in how you choose your talents:

My current spec (8/2/31) with living seed & Efflorescence.

If I drop living seed from my spec, I have to put 2 points in Tiers 1 thru 3, and 1 point I can move higher in the tree (for me, that point will go in GotEM). My options for T1 thru 3 talents are:

  • Living Seed (some people may still keep points here, but I don’t plan on keeping it)
  • Blessing of the Grove (people who raid heal a lot with rejuv will benefit more from this talent than living seed, but it’s still going to have a minor impact on healing at best)
  • Nature’s Swiftness (This is still unappealing to me. Swiftmend, with efflorescence procs, will do more for me than NS).
  • Perserverence (Decreasing the damage you take increases the probability that you will live, and while it doesn’t inflate meter numbers, dead healers can’t heal)
  • Fury of the Storm Rage (not recommended for PvE raiding specs)

With these options, I’m most likely going to pick up either Perseverance or Blessing of the Grove. I really like the idea of picking up a damage reduction talent. Since most of the damage done is magical damage, getting 4% reduced magic damage should help with keeping me alive, especially when working on “new” content.

The benefit of Blessing of the Grove on rejuv is actually pretty small (though sometimes preferable to living seed). If you are struggling with your output numbers and want to increase your healing done output, then you should invest here.

Tangedyn made a calculator for you to input some variables and get an estimate of how much living seed, blessing of the grove, or nature’s bounty would effect your healing output. In some cases, living seed is still coming out on top of these other 2 talents (which is why in some cases, I throw my hands up and pick the utility talent – perseverance instead).

There are, of course, other specs that don’t start with the template I highlighted here. When we hit patch day, I’ll post up a set of specs that are based on some of the other templates (such as specs that don’t invest in moonglow). I just wanted to get the discussion started.

How much does the un-linking of Living Seed from Efflorescence (along with the improvement of efflorescence) change your 4.1 healing talent spec plans?

28 Comments

  1. Wharep
    Posted March 20, 2011 at 6:20 am | Permalink
  2. Shaloxeroligon
    Posted March 20, 2011 at 11:10 am | Permalink

    I personally use Nature’s Swiftness with some regularity. Maybe it’s because I’m not as good a healer as you, but often I find myself in crunch situations where Regrowth won’t heal enough, Swiftmend is on cooldown, and Healing touch takes too long to cast. So I remove one of those problems by using Nature’s Swiftness as an emergency insta-Healing Touch. I use it especially when the tank is very close to death, but I otherwise wouldn’t be fast enough to save him. This is just personal preference, but I’m always glad I have it, and I always make sure to spec into it.

  3. Posted March 20, 2011 at 6:01 pm | Permalink

    Blessing of the Grove is going to get 2 points in my case and I’m going to get my magic dispel back :p Fury of Stormrage is only really useful if you’re healing rohash on normal (or dungeons perhaps)

  4. Posted March 21, 2011 at 2:12 am | Permalink

    I wouldn’t automatically pick Blessing of the Grove over Living Seed. It depends a lot on your healing style and I dare say that for many people, Living Seed can still give more throughput despite being terrible on its own.

    I have prepared a calculator that can calculate which is better for you, taking into account your own personal healing playstyle. You can check it out at http://theincbear.com/living-seed-replacement/

  5. Royalite
    Posted March 21, 2011 at 7:20 am | Permalink

    What about points in Genesis?

    Something I am considering..
    http://ptr.wowhead.com/talent#0hrbZZMfdhbcruouo

    Just looking at the tooltip, Genesis seems more appealing than BotG. Genesis affects swiftmend and all periodic spells not just rejuv. I could be missing something here though.

    I took MG but you could consider putting the points into moonglow since it is not restricted in its use (whereas MG works only for a limited selection of spells) and the remaining point in finishing off Genesis.

  6. Royalite
    Posted March 21, 2011 at 7:23 am | Permalink

    Ah figured it out…

    missing furor.

    • Lissanna
      Posted March 21, 2011 at 10:43 am | Permalink

      Unfortunately, you still have to put 31 points in the resto tree regardless of how many points you want to put in feral & balance. ;)

  7. Kweh
    Posted March 21, 2011 at 8:40 am | Permalink

    If I’m reading the 4.1 talent calc correctly (if it’s even correct) its[Efflorescence] changed to only targeting 3 members and you need to max the skill now (4/8/12% vs 10/20/30%)… where’s the improvement?

    • Lissanna
      Posted March 21, 2011 at 9:37 am | Permalink

      because it heals more than it did before. The 12% is per person, whereas the 30% was total. It heals each of those 3 people for MORE than it healed previously. Basically, you will now do substantial healing (in most cases, it will tick for about 2,000 per tick on each of those 3 people who need it the most) instead of spreading the healing out onto people who don’t need it (ie. it could drop as low as 150 per tick with 25 people standing on it). It also now scales with haste, so you’ll get more ticks.

      http://r4healingtouch.wordpress.com/2011/03/04/efflo-confirmed-as-a-smart-heal-with-a-buff/

  8. Disen
    Posted March 21, 2011 at 2:30 pm | Permalink

    Any chance Blizz reworks Living Seed to be the damage reduction CD we’ve been waiting for?

    • Lissanna
      Posted March 21, 2011 at 3:37 pm | Permalink

      At this point, the tranquility cooldown reduction was our cookie, whether we like that flavor of cookie or not.

      • Ghost Hendrikson
        Posted March 21, 2011 at 10:08 pm | Permalink

        Oh sweet baby jeebus I pray that the change to Tranquility change isn’t our “Cool Down”. While it is a welcome change it doesn’t address our lack of damage mitigation. /fingers crossed.

  9. Chiraa
    Posted March 21, 2011 at 2:57 pm | Permalink

    The best thing about unlinking it is… if you raid heal, you can put points in raid healing stuff… if you tank heal, you can put points in tank healing stuff. LS is really a tank healing talent.. It was not at all logical that we had to take a tank healing talent to get to a raid healing talent. Strangely, they are now unlinked, just when Efflorescence has become more useful for tank healing… lol.

    I might continue to put points in LS, but now, I can max Efflorescence and maybe have fewer in LS. Haven’t been healing raids yet so not sure. The one thing I know is that now I have a choice, and that is great!

  10. Nymerias
    Posted March 21, 2011 at 3:06 pm | Permalink

    I’m very happy for the un-linking of living seed, but to combine it with making efflorescence a smart heal too is amazing. I want to top off my GotEM with a 3rd point, but I am torn between BotG and a defensive boost.
    Thanks to Tangedyn for that calculator, but my healing rotation just seems to change so much for each fight that none of them is consistently better than another. That makes me think I should lean towards a consistent 4% spell damage reduction. Maybe even more so since after reviewing the logs I’m usually the healer that dies first on our wipes :(

  11. Posted March 22, 2011 at 6:11 am | Permalink

    You inspired me to do some math comparing if I moved talents out of Living Seed and into Blessing of the Grove. It was some napkin math where I took my total healing done by Rejuvenation and added 4%. I looked at the past 15 boss kills and several heroic attempts. For every boss, an added 4% to Rejuvenation was always less than the healing that my Living Seed had done. In some cases, my Living Seed healing did more than double an added 4% to Rejuvenation.

    Using Tangedyn’s calculator plugging numbers in from the same 15 boss kills and several heroic attempts, the numbers always weight toward Living Seed by a factor of at least 20% compared to Blessing of the Grove. I had one outlier from an almost successful heroic attempt (2% wipe) where the weight for Living Seed was less than 1% higher than Blessing of the Grove, though I contribute this to 3 other healers dying around 20% and the remaining 3 healers adjusting accordingly.

    I don’t know know what your healing approach is but generally speaking I tank heal, keeping 3-5 Rejuvs out on the raid at a time and then use Efflorescence and Wild Growth on CD on the raid. In this capacity, half of my time is spent spamming Nourish or Healing Touch on the tank and typically giving the tank my Regrowth HoT when clearcasting procs (I will sometimes use it on a raid member but most commonly on a tank). Despite an overall focus on tank healing, Wild Growth and Rejuvenation still always account for more than 50% of my healing done. This is typically because there are phases in almost every fight where I spend 30-45 seconds (total) just spamming Rejuv because either the tank is taking very predictable damage (that my LB+Rejuv+RG + Paladin Beacon can handle) or because the tank isn’t taking any more damage than the raid (eg. P2 Nefarion).

    • Posted March 22, 2011 at 10:55 pm | Permalink

      Adding 4% to your Rejuvenation done for Blessing of the Grove is not correct, because Blessing of the Grove stacks additively with Glyph of Rejuvenation, Improved Rejuvenation and Gift of Nature, so you only get 2.666% (slightly less if you have Genesis too). My calculator accounts for this (which is why it asks for your Genesis talent). This additive thing is really what makes BotG so terrible.

      • Posted March 24, 2011 at 8:27 am | Permalink

        Ahh yes makes sense. Napkin math fails me again. Cool, thanks.

        I have corrected this consideration and there is more healing from BotG but it comes to less healing than Living Seed for about half of the fights. Primarily fights where I have to focus more on the tank than raid, so these numbers makes sense. In this regard, it still favors Living Seed for me as a general rule. Of interest, the one fight where I maintain mega healing focus on the tanks (Heroic Halfus), my Living Seed didn’t do squat, primarily because of my low Healing Touch crit. Char spec put me just shy of 20% crit but only realized 12.5% in the fight. RNG, gotta love it.

  12. Posted March 22, 2011 at 6:14 am | Permalink

    Oops, for to comment on Perseverance and to ask my question. Ultimately I’m not inclined to take Perseverance because a constant Rejuv on myself and Barkskin keeps me alive well enough, even in heroics.

    And my question is why are people so inclined to drop Living Seed? What are you guys and gals numbers from Living Seed and how do they compare to the alternatives in terms of healing returned?

    • Lissanna
      Posted March 22, 2011 at 9:03 am | Permalink

      Sometimes, I make my final talent choices based on protesting the talents I don’t like in hopes that Blizzard will change them. Sometimes it works, lol.

      Honestly, at those earlier tiers, we’re having to choose between some pretty bad talents. I don’t like several of our options at that earlier tier. The unlinking of Seed & Efflorescence impacts mostly people who were skipping both talents because they felt like the couldn’t afford it, and it impacts people who already have it slightly less.

      It largely just frees up about 1 talent point to put in something good (ie. maybe you previously skipped magic cleansing), and 2 points that you don’t really have a better place to invest.

  13. Shapeshy
    Posted March 22, 2011 at 12:40 pm | Permalink

    Personally, I’m one of those druids who currently isn’t using LS or Efflorescence as I’m the designated raid healer in our guild (so have selected GotE & BotG). I have one point in LS as I needed 31 points in resto, but that’s about the only reason. However, the more I read the blogs about druid healing, the more I see druid healers have become tank healers. Although I can definitely see the merit of tank healing, (we’re definitely more equipped for it than we used to be) I wonder who is doing all the raid healing in your guilds? Currently, my guild uses me as a raid healer (obviously, also tank healing a bit with a constant LB up) and a holy Paladin to focus on tanks when we 2 man heal and we add a priest healer when we need 3 healers (on damage heavy fights as we still have people failing at certain tacs thereby taking heavy damage). Would love to hear how other guilds manage this as I’ve often pointed out in guild that I could be more effective while focusing on one tank and the raid instead of only the raid.

  14. Continuous
    Posted March 25, 2011 at 12:28 am | Permalink

    I have been looking a lot at Furor recently compared to Moonglow (which should get the 2/3 and which 3/3) and I get a lot of answers. From what I have seen the better your gear the less useful Furor becomes as your need for the added mana regen via Innervate and Replenishment is diminished but sometimes there are no points in Furor in favor of 2/3 Moonglow and 3/3 Genesis which makes even less since because of how small the throughput buff is from genesis…

    I guess my question is: What is better? 3/3 Moonglow with 2/3 Furor, 0/3 Furor with 2/3 Moonglow and 3/3 Genesis, or 3/3 Furor with 2/3 Moonglow.

    Sorry for the ramblings – I dont know how accurate treecalcs is but I guess assuming its correct then Furor is best (by a LARGE 25%).

    • Temppy
      Posted March 25, 2011 at 5:12 pm | Permalink

      i personally run with 2/3 furor and 3/3 moonglow the reduction to your heals being cast is a greater benefit than more mana from furor however i have recently been thinking bout moving my points from furor to genesis, but idk i really like all my mana and it gives me more power for innervate

    • Posted March 27, 2011 at 12:21 pm | Permalink

      You may want to check out my spreadsheet here: http://theincbear.com/resto-druid-spreadsheet/
      Play around with the encounter duration. Moonglow is generally better than Furor for encounters lasting more than 3 minutes.

  15. Nymerias
    Posted March 25, 2011 at 3:14 pm | Permalink

    I just saw a change to Nature’s Swiftness on MMO that I hadn’t seen mentioned before. I know I personally dropped the talent because I wasn’t using it enough, but now an instant cast Healing Touch with 50% more healing has me taking a double take on that talent. What do you guys think?

    • Lissanna
      Posted March 25, 2011 at 5:44 pm | Permalink

      It’s obviously a buff to the talent.

      However, we will need to examine it more closely to see if it’s worth investing in. Given the other talent choices available for progressing up the talent tree, it might be worth picking up Nature’s Swiftness, but I can’t really say for sure at this point.

  16. Rivelda
    Posted March 29, 2011 at 7:36 am | Permalink

    I really wonder how good Moonglow really is.

    I’ve had http://www.wowhead.com/talent#00bZcZrfzIdcruouo (2/3/36) since the beginning, without the use of talent guides. In 10 mans I obviously have to be careful not to waste healing and spam regrowth and overheal and stuff like that, but I haven’t “missed” the talent, until I saw that nearly all talent guides advise getting Moonglow.

    Is it that much of a difference?

    • Lissanna
      Posted March 29, 2011 at 9:34 am | Permalink

      It is easier to assume people are going to have mana problems when they start healing in Cata than to assume that they won’t. People who don’t have mana problems usually have the gear & experience necessary to decide that they want to deviate. In my actual guide, I’m pretty sure I have at least 1 build up that skips moonglow. However, the build I’m talking about in this particular thread is more effected by the changes in 4.1 than the builds that plan to spend 36 points in resto after the patch.

      Most guides had talent builds from very early in a patch cycle (ie. when we were all in quest greens hitting 85, or maybe updated when we were in blues getting ready for raiding). The things that the developers want to emphasize is choice in building your talent spec in Cata, which is something that a class guide never really captures (because guides end up being written for people who need help in building their spec).

      • Rivelda
        Posted March 30, 2011 at 10:25 am | Permalink

        After looking at my talents again, I considered that I didn’t really need Nature’s Bounty (the crit of regrowth doesn’t really help, not even for Chimaeron, which is about the only fight where I use regrowth [glyphed] and I rarely use Nourish except for tank healing… should I use nourish for raid healing when I have 3+ rejuv up? I prefer to cast WG then, rejuv more and let other healers do bigger heals if it is necessary).
        And I didn’t really need Blessing of the Grove (+4% rejuv heal) that badly, I removed 1 point from Furor and I could go 8/2/31 easily. http://www.wowhead.com/talent#0hbhZMZMfzId0ruouo

        So even if the “mana issue” is not very pressing, it seems to me BotG and NB aren’t that important either.