MoP feedback: Level 90 druid talents

Now that beta has started, it’s time to get serious about evaluating the new talents and their problems. Today, we’ll start with the level 90 talents. I was going to try and fit multiple tiers of talents in this post, but the level 90 talents actually deserve their own post. I can’t actually play with the level 90 talents in beta right now, since I’m level 85. However, I don’t need to play with them to know they have problems. In this case, I am going to be particularly critical of the talents because early beta is the best time to ask for changes with a realistic expectation that things aren’t final and CAN (and probably will) change over the course of game development, and that critical feedback is a good way to impact change.

Heart of the Wild:

What it does: HOTW Gives you a small benefit to an off-spec role for a pretty long chunk of time (45 seconds) on a super long cooldown (6 minutes). The moonkin version on beta makes healing spells interact with Eclipse. It also boosts your agility, armor, and makes it so you can’t be crit by melee attacks. The resto version on  beta gives more int, spell hit, melee hit, expertise, armor, and makes it so you can’t be crit by melee attacks. Makes it so your damage spells hit harder and don’t cost mana.

PvE Uses:

  • Moonkin will primarily use this to “prime” Eclipse before a boss pull (ie: “Wait! I’m still charging my lasers!”). Killing critters in Firelands used to serve this function, so I’m pretty sure moonkin will do this just because they can (ie. they’ll pop HOTW and then spam heals until they are 1 cast away from an Eclipse proc). If that functionality gets taken away, there is no other real PvE use for Heart of the Wild for moonkin. The ability to go into bear or cat form sounds cool, but isn’t actually useful for PvE damage purposes.
  • Resto druids could use it if the INT increases healing done in any way (though it’s possible that the tooltip is supposed to say Agi and not int). It may also get used on gimmick fights where you can’t heal and doing damage would be better than standing around doing nothing.

Verdict: This talent really is horrible in many ways, and will quite possibly be the least used talent out of any talent tree in the history of the game. The cooldown & duration on this talent are too long. No moonkin or resto druid are ever going to have times where they want to do off-spec things for 45 seconds in a 6 minute fight. Any time my moonkin heals, it’s for 1 or 2 casts (ie. a tranquility or a rejuv). Unless I screw up and forget to change into my resto spec before a pull, there’s no reason  for me to be spending resources healing for long periods of time. What really makes this spell so bad? It’s because they stripped you of all the off-spec abilities you would have otherwise been able to use during it’s duration. They took away lifebloom, regrowth, & nourish from all non-healing specs. They took away a lot of melee & tanking abilities from casters. They took away so many things that you don’t have enough spells to cast in your off-spec role for you to be viable at that role for 45 seconds even with stats to support the off-spec role. They seem to have added a couple of them back in, but that’s really just part of the problem. There’s a complete lack of focus on the talent (so, moonkin could tank, cat DPS, OR heal from the talent – which means you get to be crappy at 3 things instead of good at 1). It’s just not a PvE viable tool for anything but gimmick fights, and is somewhat insulting to put in druids’ level 90 talent tier when all the other classes get real level 90 talents. They nuked shaman’s entire level 90 talent tier and came up with better stuff, but they keep doing minor tweaks to the druid one instead of the major surgery they need to do. This talent isn’t going to get used in MoP and won’t survive an entire expansion. Unfortunately, it’s taking up space in our talent tree and I know Blizzard could do better.

Dream of Cenarius:

What it does: Melee attacks or non-instant damage spells give you a healing buff. Cast-time healing spells give you a damage buff.

PvE uses:

  • For moonkin, Tranquility would heal for 30% more (but casting tranquility won’t give you the damage bonus). That’s about all this means.
  • For resto druids, I’m not sure what PvE use this has, as resto druids have ignored every damage-increasing talent they threw at us in Cataclysm. I don’t see MoP making resto druids want to stop healing and do more damage.

Verdict: I know I said in another post that this would be better if it was based off healing utility. However,  they took away regrowth from non-resto druids, rendering Dream of Cenarius pretty much useless for anyone. If Dream of Cenarius could actually proc off any of our level 30 healing talents, or worked with instant-cast things, then it would be a little more useful. However, I really think the problem with Dream of Cenarius is at a conceptual level, and it will either become so overpowered that you have to do off-spec things to improve your main role, OR you just won’t ever use this talent.

Disentanglement:

What it does: When you shift forms, you get a heal (once every 30 seconds). Also gives you the ability to break roots by shifting.

PvE uses:

  • The uses are largely the same for everyone.This is likely just going to be a passive thing where you sometimes get a heal when you do things like shift into travel form to escape something. The root break seems more helpful for feral & guardian druids, since I believe that moonkin’s tooltip still says that it breaks movement impairing effects (whereas cat/bear form say movement slowing effects. Resto druids can also just cleanse the magic effect from themselves).

Verdict: Since Heart of the Wild and Dream of Cenarius are both terrible talents, this is ends up being the default right answer (except for the case where moonkin may sometimes want Heart of the Wild to charge their lasers before a pull). There is no other right answer besides this one. We’ll all just take this and have another self-heal, and we’ll all just have the ability to shift out of roots. So, this talent overall is fine. The fact this talent is better than the other options is really just because the other two are basically unusable.

General Conclusions: Realistically, disentanglement becomes the right answer for all 4 specs for PvP and PvE. I don’t think minor changes can save HOTW or Dream of Cenarius. Thus far, we have seen several rounds of minor changes to HOTW and DoC that still leave them as bad choices for PvE. Ideally, they could remove HOTW and Dream of Cenarius from our talent tree and come up with a better idea for the level 90 talents. Another option could be consolidating the two crowd control tiers down into one CC tier, moving the level 90 talents to an earlier level (because they’d actually make better leveling talents than end-game talents by far), and adding in a new set of talents that provide more actual useful utility for us. Either way, we need a different set of level 90 ultimate talents. I know that Blizzard can do better, and I expect them to do better.

41 Comments

  1. Stupidhero
    Posted March 24, 2012 at 6:59 pm | Permalink

    I’m calling HotW and Dream of Cenarius “Improved Tranquility(non-resto)” for a reason.

    Now we’ve had our expirience with Improved Tranquility for Vanilla-WotLK.

    If blizzard plans on keeping the hybrid tier, my stance is as follow:

    Regardless of the tier 90 design they ought to consolidate the CC tiers into one:
    -Roll Faerie Swarm into the Fae glyph
    -Have Ursol’s Vortex take it’s place
    -Give Mighty Bash/Roar to the specs in need of it. My best guess is, that with the addition of symbiosis and our mobility tier one, no one really needs it, but it would be a nice ability for resto druids for sure.

    Then have both tier 75 and tier 90 as hybrid tiers – though not in those highly situational abilities HotW/DoC are. That is, they shouldn’t depend only on enviromental variables to be useful, that is what’s making them entirely useless.

    Of course it’s better if they scrap this hybrid idea alltogether, it’s been proven in the past that it’s hard to balance properly, if not impossible and the gameplay for sure doesn’t feel rewarding. No one want’s to be less than 100% of a role.

  2. Lucrece
    Posted March 24, 2012 at 7:20 pm | Permalink

    My account is inactive, so I can’t post over at bnet, Lissana — feel free to post for me if you want:

    -Displacer Beast needs to be baseline. We don’t have any evasive emergency cooldown that takes a focus train off the druid.

    - Making the druid choose between a snare or a root/knockback is cheap as hell when the shaman and pretty much all other ranged get a snare baseline and get new spells on top of it. Faerie Fire should be a snare baseline because the ability should be useful to balance druids as well without having to talent for it, period.

    - Removing Regrowth and Lifebloom made the new glyph allowing heals in moonkin pointless. Do they really not understand how impractical Healing Touch is as a heal? Are they making rejuv heal based off %hp to make it worthwhile for the druid specs that don’t have a flash heal?

    - Treants for moonkin look good, except for scalability problems. Time and again pets have been shown to scale very poorly with gear, particularly cooldown pets. They have to come up with a formula for accounting for the entirety of the druid’s gear and stats to make sure treants don’t become obsolete.

    Also, treant HP needs to be far improved from the earlier incarnations, and the feral version becomes problematic because the treants are easily CC’d and negated more easily than the ranged versions.

    - The new insect swarm model, if still intended, introduces serious concerns. 30% extra damage debuff means our BASE damage is going to be suffering for it to be balanced in PvE, and we see how that screws over affliction warlocks versus shadow priests who don’t see their damage tied to debuffs like shadow embrace/haunt (which made spriests pretty much eclipse warlocks in the DoT department, particularly multidot damage since spriest damage was baseline and self-buff based rather than tied to a debuffed target).

    - Starsurge. It needs to be fixed by un-nerfing the damage. A 15 sec cd, longest cd keystone nuke should NOT be eclipsed by an 8 sec cd lava burst or Mind Blast or other lower cooldown nukes of the sort. Especially when it provides a marginal benefit over the average nukes.

    - Starfire. PvP’ers need a glyph to reduce its cast time to 2 secs baseline and reduce the damage proportionally. It is NOT viable to cast in PvP, pretty much how fire mages cast scorch and cannot afford to cast fireball in PvP. It’s absurd, even with moonkin gaining disengage, the long cast time of Starfire is easy to outrange/LoS/interrupt in PvP. It’s also not a particularly mobile nuke relative to wrath in PvE.

    -Solar Beam. It’s terrible as a substitute for a proper interrupt/silence in PvP. At least reduce it to 45 secs and give it a baseline 4-5 sec silence similar to the shadow priest. Right now it simply accompliishes nothing due to the nerfed radius from beta, so people can exit it in less than 2 seconds.

    -Balance needs better glyph support. It’s options were limited and cookie cutter.

    - Ferals got screwed with losing Survival Instincts. Not only did a feral cat already have lesser evasion/durability than a rogue, now all a feral has is barkskin baseline as a survival skill and a crappy Might of Ursoc as a last stand. Feral cats need mitigation, and baseline bear abilities will not cut it, especially since rogues and DK’s can continue to do their job while using defensive skills whereas cat druids cannot.

  3. Posted March 24, 2012 at 7:29 pm | Permalink

    I just would like to link my proposed talent tree. Maybe it serves as a suggestion to fix our talents.

    http://mop-talent-grid-maker.appspot.com/talentgridmaker?theAction=view&gridId=40001

    I agree 100% with you Liss, except by the fact that some of us will indeed get HotW formthe sheer oportunity to improve off-heals, even knowing that the talent SUCKS. I for one would rather have a talent that barely helps me with heals than a selfish one who only helps myself.

    • Lissanna
      Posted March 24, 2012 at 8:03 pm | Permalink

      Hey Opal, in your talent grid, we need to get rid of Newfound Equilibrium since the Lifebloom Glyph takes away the need for resto to have it, and cat druids can probably get that from Symbiosis if needed.

      • Opalbreeze
        Posted March 24, 2012 at 10:03 pm | Permalink

        Yeah, that is right Liss! I’ll update it. Need ideas!

  4. tranqx
    Posted March 24, 2012 at 8:50 pm | Permalink

    Quick Question about Dream of Cenarius – FOR A RESTO Druid …

    Will Dream of Cen increased Tranquility by 30%?

    • Lissanna
      Posted March 24, 2012 at 9:08 pm | Permalink

      We don’t know how it will work. It’s possible that you could throw a wrath before popping tranquility, but that would waste a spell cast that could be better spent on an actual healing spell in emergencies.

      • Stupidhero
        Posted March 24, 2012 at 9:19 pm | Permalink

        Not to mention that it’s highely unlikely that you will be able to cast a wrath right before you have to pop tranquility. Other scenarios? Overheal isn’t needed actually.

        • Lissanna
          Posted March 24, 2012 at 9:32 pm | Permalink

          yeah exactly

        • michel
          Posted March 26, 2012 at 4:00 am | Permalink

          EMERGENCY!! Tranq needed now!… wait I’m first gonna set up a wrath here for better healing, lol!

  5. Posted March 24, 2012 at 10:01 pm | Permalink

    You must post this in blizzard Mop feedback forums, I agree 100% with you.

  6. Chantee
    Posted March 25, 2012 at 12:03 am | Permalink

    I welcome more hybrid abilities, especially when it’s tied into shifting forms. This was why I originally rolled druid, to be a hybrid. Sure, in a raid healing situation I’ll most likely be healing 95% of the time, but there are times when our raid team has needed to squeeze out some extra dps, think killing tendons on Spine or killing slimes on Yorsahj. There’s also been fights where being able to shift into bear and soak up a massive hit, like fading light on heroic Ultrax, would be really helpful. Or how about when the tank dies near the end of a fight and being able to step in and tank legitimately for just long enough to turn a wipe into win? Ideally speaking, if we always had the perfect raid composition and everyone was geared and executed perfectly, we wouldn’t have to do anything besides heal heal heal. I don’t see myself using all of these abilities on cooldown, but it’s nice to have extra abilities in my arsenal. We’re getting more utility, and it makes perfect sense for druids of all classes to get it.

    • Lissanna
      Posted March 25, 2012 at 8:01 am | Permalink

      Hybrid options should be available – but not as our level 90 talents (and not as horrible level 90 talents that aren’t viable). Having hybrid talents that trick you into thinking you can do cool things (when you don’t have the abilities to support those cool things) will just frustrate you.

      HOTW isn’t designed to be able to go into bear and soak up the Hour of Twilight effect on H Ultraxion (Symbiosis and a couple other things we get in MoP would actually be better targets than HOTW for giving you tools to deal with that! As a resto druid, you could pickup antimagic shell from a DK or iceblock from a mage). HOTW designed to try and tank the boss for 45 seconds on a 6 minute cooldown, except that you won’t be able to actually generate threat because you have no buttons to hit in bear form, and you have no survivability cooldowns to keep you alive in bear form. A tiny bit of armor and AGI doesn’t turn a resto druid into a viable tank. Evasion on a rogue is a better tanking cooldown than HOTW. That’s part of what’s wrong with the ability (too weak, with too long of an effect, on too long of a cooldown, and taking up a precious spot in our level 90 talents). The implementation and design of HOTW prevents the minor changes they’ve made to he ability from making the ability viable. The idea of the ability could make a neat baseline ability available to everyone, but it makes a poor level 90 talent when all the other classes get level 90 talents that are amazing and helpful for their main role all the time.

  7. Verdus
    Posted March 25, 2012 at 2:28 am | Permalink

    The biggest problem with these talents, it seems to me, is that they’re completely counter to the general design of all the other talents, or at least the other level 90 talents. Every other spec with known talents has at least one option at level 90 that helps them with their primary role, albeit sometimes in an indirect fashion. The level 90 druid talents, on the other hand, seem specifically designed to *avoid* benefiting your primary role. I get that they want to re-introduce some hybridization to the druid class (whether or not this is a good idea is a completely separate debate), but our top tier of talents is emphatically not the place to do that.

    • Lissanna
      Posted March 25, 2012 at 8:03 am | Permalink

      Yes, Exactly.

      • michel
        Posted March 26, 2012 at 4:07 am | Permalink

        Right, as resto I wanna heal 100% of the time and not dps. neither use a dps spell to boost my healing. Hope the fix the lvl 90 talents.

  8. Posted March 25, 2012 at 2:57 am | Permalink

    I agree that it’s odd the shape-shifting talents come at level 90. The use of off-spec skills is much more common while leveling, when you are in dungeons with all sorts of insanity happening.

    That said, I hope they keep plugging away at the off specs at max level, too. I play a druid to shapeshift, and I don’t just mean shapeshift at the beginning of the expansion and then never change back again. Even if it’s only a once in a while thing, and even if it only adds a little bit of difference, it greatly increases my enjoyment of playing a druid.

    Certainly it’s a challenge to make it work well, but I don’t see in general why they can’t balance it. Key is that the cooldown is very long, roughly once per fight. Additionally, they should probably avoid having the talent do too much for your primary spec; it needs to make the secondary spec semi-viable for a short period of time.

    Reducing the 45 seconds, and making it more powerful, certainly sounds interesting. I must say, the efforts to give restoration druids some damage abilities in Cataclysm had disappointing results. Doing less damage than a tank is just pitiful.

  9. tranqx
    Posted March 25, 2012 at 4:00 am | Permalink

    You are 100% correct – how stupid of me….

    Tranq is always an emergency type reaction spell….

    I really hope the deveoplers listen to you lisanna – cause i can see alot of issues with resto’s going into MOP…

    • Lissanna
      Posted March 25, 2012 at 8:06 am | Permalink

      Druids aren’t in a terrible place in Beta. We’ve been in far worse situations. It’s just that the talent tree design is new, and Blizzard likes coming up with bad ideas and holding onto them as long as possible. They sound cool on paper but just won’t work in practice, and don’t belong there as our level 90 talents.

      • Starfury
        Posted March 25, 2012 at 2:47 pm | Permalink

        Lissana you are right in that Heart of the wild and DoC don’t have real uses for the Moonkins role of damage dealer in pvE.

        However, i don’t think that was the intention at all, and it has a lot of pvE usage, just not for damage dealing if you’re a moonkin or healing if you’re a resto, i’ve always viewed it as the perfect talent to help save a raid at a crucial point when someone in another role is down with the boss on 9%. the very best guilds may need this less except for the progress runs, but most guilds and most 5man groups , not to mention challenge modes, will find this a life saver, in the hands of a skillful druid.

        I like it. Great set of talents. I did have a criticism for Moonkin talents when they were first aired, and the criticism was that there was hardly anything new to affect the moonkin dps role, we got a lot of support in utility and our capability in other forms, but the spec was just tidied up rather than taken to the next level. That was the disappointment. The solution is not to get rid of Heart of the Wild or DoC, no, i think those are re-introducing perhaps the most unique thing of a druid, not ot mention this is very useful in pvp too, the solution was to have done more to moonkin mechanics for MoP rather than tidy up things.

        htey did some neat tidying up with eclipse,
        for e.g. Lunar and solar are now equally useful at eclipses, both have a Dot, and 2 useable AOEs each that are boosted, a nuke each, .. it took the change to insect swarm introduction of Astral Storm hurricane’s lunar version, and a starfall that refreshes cooldown on every eclipse to fix that.

        Aside from that, the only real new toy given was Celestial Alignment – even Incarnation SotF are rather tame. this was the expansion I had hoped to see a more useful moonkin form that maybe could alter spells..at least as a talent so you could skip it if you didn’t like the complication.
        Or seeing wrtah/starfire/starsurge get secondary effects that gave them a greater distinction.. starsurge has no surge, that knock down could come back, starfire could burn you for xtra damage on crit, you could have a chance to cast a second instant free wrath for a percentage of hte damage – those just some of my wishes

        but you get the drift, it is only in this lifht that tier 6 seems a bit frustrating, but then, what do you give a calss as diversified as the druid for a tier 6? without doubt it is a useful tier, bu also without doubt moonkin should have ahd a litlte bit more.

        I suggest that:
        1. Moonkin can call up 1 single treant, as a balance spec only ability, and taking the talent makes that 1 tree turn into 3.
        2. what i said above about wrath/starfire/starsurge
        3. some mechanics that can allow you to cast more than one mushrroom, like hurricane will generate a shrrroom every 3 secs for Aoe conveinence and maybe Insect swarm on a target will occasionally cause an 3xtra mushroom to grow under it.

        • Stupidhero
          Posted March 25, 2012 at 5:20 pm | Permalink

          A talent which requires a mass of enviromental variables (i.e. you cannot influence in the slightest) is neither fun nor will have a wide array of uses. You’re describing the worst case possible, that is you choose a talent to become useful, iff someone else in your raid fails, that is, you’re requiring someone to do bad, for you to become good. In addition the scenario is already covered by combat rezz in a more effective way, even more so with the improved Nature’s Swiftness (THE choice for resto on this tier in my opinion). Now, I’m also inclined to believe that, if you need more than one/three rezzes, you’re doing something completely wrong, and in this case HotW/DoC most likely won’t save you either.

          • Lissanna
            Posted March 25, 2012 at 5:45 pm | Permalink

            Also, keep in mind that we have a baseline 100% INT -> AGI conversion. Our AGI is as high as our INT is. It’s not stats that is the problem for tanking or DPS. It’s a problem of not having the ability support to be able to sustain it for 45 seconds with a limited tool set. A better hybrid ability talent would be a talent to let non-resto druids have lifebloom back (at least for PvP purposes), and give resto druids something like starfall in exchange.

            It could also work if Blizzard picked one off-role thing for each spec on HOTW (ie. cat becomes viable tank, resto gets good at casting damage spells, balance becomes good at healing, tank does great cat damage). A focused approach to HOTW would be a lot better than getting a weak and unfocused bonus to all three off-roles.

  10. Posted March 25, 2012 at 11:10 am | Permalink

    Here is a question. Would you be as opposed to these talents if they where tier 2 or 3 instead of tier 6? I am not a big fan of making Druids more Hybridy, but I’m getting the impression that a lot of people are opposed to the tier because it is our level 90 tier and doesn’t provide something awesome like moonkin form, force of nature, or starfall.

    I’m looking at this purely from the stand point of a pve moonkin, but to me it’s completely ridiculous that you would suggest that disentanglement is an obvious choice over dream of cenarious. There are plenty of times when I have cast heals on myself in raid that would likely make DoC the better choice, and I don’t think I have had to break roots once this entire expansion.

    Even with Heart of the Wild there are mid fight possibilities that could make it useful. In general I thin this tier is suffering from a perception problem. It’s not significantly different then tier 1 or 5 in terms of usefulness. Tier 3 is only slightly better because of typhoon.

    Yes this tier is very situational, but you’ve ignored several possiblities.

    • Lissanna
      Posted March 25, 2012 at 4:09 pm | Permalink

      If these talents go live, I’ll be able to find uses for them. However, this is the point to ask for improvements. I don’t object to these existing so much as the fact they come at the expense of having the more interesting and amazing level 90 talents. I mean, they nuked the shaman’s entire final talent tier based on feedback and started over from scratch, then they just made minor, almost meaningless, changes to ours. In general, the other class’ level 90 talents: A) Buff their main role, and B) are not nearly as situational. I mean, one of my two options for what to do with the talents is to remove one of the crowd control tiers and move our current “hybrid” talents earlier in the talent tree. I don’t object to sometimes being able to do an off-role thing. I use tranquility in almost every fight. I’m planning to go thru the rest of the talent tiers to give feedback and then do an overall impressions post. I just need to drag it out into smaller chunks so I can go into any sort of real detail. The druid talent tree in general seems lackluster and uninspired and I know they can do better.

      • Stupidhero
        Posted March 25, 2012 at 5:32 pm | Permalink

        I’ve to agree that the druid talent feels lackluster, that is uninspiring, uncreative and downright boring on a majority of the tiers, even more so if you realize just what blizzard could come up with for other classes.

        The interesting and well designed talents for me as of now are :
        Wild Charge, Nature’s Swiftness, Mass Entaglement, Soul of the Forrest, Incarnation (partially), Treants, Ursols Vortex.

        The remaining talents seem to be there, either because one feels, that every druid should have access to them, but didn’t want to add more to our baseline abilities (Bash / Disentanglement / Feline Swiftness) or to make up for the shortcomings of our toolkit compared to that of other classes by handing us druid-themed copies of their spells (Displacer Beast / Disorienting Roar / Displacer Beast).

        The final tier was likely the result of them running out of ideas on what to give to four different classes united under one name, and the “best” they could come up with at that moment was hybri-play.

        Why exactly they added Faerie Swarm as a talent and not as a glyph is still a mystery for me :>

  11. FD
    Posted March 25, 2012 at 11:34 am | Permalink

    HOTW has some potentially interesting uses because you can’t switch roles in combat. In PvE choosing the number of healers for a given encounter is always a tricky task. If the enrage timer isn’t tight you run as many healers as you need to deal with the most dangerous phase of the fight even if they will sitting on their hands for much of it. If the enrage is tight then you take the minimum healers you can. If there is an intense healing phase and a tight dps check then things get interesting, you either take max dps and use dps off healing to fill in the gaps or you can take enough healers and have them dps for part of the fight. In either case HOTW could be very useful.

    A couple examples:
    H Baleroc 10: Many early 10 man baleroc kills used a dps to heal the tank during the first crystal while the healers built up major stacks on the tank.
    H Alysrazor: A number of strats had dps help off heal during p4 since p4 damage was mostly inconsequential.
    H Rag 10: Since P3 H rag was the dps check and had limited healing having a druid healer spend p3 dpsing with a special spec (starlight wrath and balance of power) allowed you to make the dps check more easily without significantly sacrificing healing on the encounter.
    H Zonozz-Being able to add an extra healer for black phases or an extra dps during while phases would be very powerful on that fight since the healing requirements of black vs. white phases are so different.
    H Yorsahj- Add an extra healer for Red+Yellow+Green+Black
    H Ultaxion 25- Most strats call for at least 2 (of 5) healers to dps until about 2 minutes into the fight to lessen the dps check.

    Yes the toolkit you have to work with is reduced but people are already doing similar things now without the talent, I can certainly see some pretty powerful usage of HOTW.

    • Lissanna
      Posted March 25, 2012 at 4:10 pm | Permalink

      The idea of being able to do off-role things is neat. Their implementation of how they did it sucks.

      They are taking away about half of the off-role abilities you have right now. You don’t have lifebloom, swiftmend (with Efflo), healing shrooms, regrowth, or nourish if you aren’t resto. You don’t have cat’s primary sources of damage. You don’t have the threat generation or mitigation buttons needed to tank. You don’t have the mastery abilities of the other classes.

      Giving us a cooldown to increase our off-role stats doesn’t fix the problem of having no off-role buttons to hit, or having off-role buttons that are missing the OOMPH that make them useful. In concept, being able to do off-role things is fine. In practice, however, their current implementation of that idea blows. If they find a better way to implement that idea, it would be fine. It’s an implementation problem as much as it is a conceptual problem. You’ll probably last tanking a boss for like 15 seconds (spending the other 30 seconds of the buff going “well, THAT was a bad idea”. You’ll be able to buff the healing done by your tranquility and then have 35 seconds to stand around feeling stupid casting rejuv & healing touch pointlessly and not helping your raid. I’d also be fine if Heart of the Wild was a baseline ability everyone got that people could choose to ignore. I have a problem with to particularly poor talents taking up a precious level 90 talent spots.

  12. Tranqx
    Posted March 25, 2012 at 4:33 pm | Permalink

    How much dps do you think a resto Druid cam do switching to bear in 45 Secs – so you think it would be enough to avoid 2 living meteors in P3 (heroic rag).

    Do you knOw what abilities you can use when you switch.

    Furthermore, as players get more geared, so does the need to bring in a healer (ie heroic morchok, normal spine, heroic HGara, heroic yorsaj and the list goes on and on.

    As raid leader you would much prefer to bring in a dps with healing off spec than a resto who can go bear/ cat and dps for 45 secs with limited abilities or bring in a shadow priest who can heal naturally through dps —-this is such a stupid talent – no practicality whatsoever.

    If They really want to keep it they should swap it with treant talent.

    iT seems as though the game developers are avoiding the need for restoration Druids to actually have a raid cd.

  13. Stupidhero
    Posted March 25, 2012 at 5:56 pm | Permalink

    If you want to get a picture of how “hybridity” is awarded in a better way, have a look at Teachings of the Monastery ( http://www.wowdb.com/spells/116645-teachings-of-the-monastery) learned by EVERY mistweaver at lvl 72. It’s a nice little extra coming for free, nothing which you’re “forced” into.

    • Lissanna
      Posted March 25, 2012 at 6:49 pm | Permalink

      Yup. There’s no reason we should have to pay a level 90 talent for bad hybrid talents when there are better ways to give us hybrid abilities.

  14. Starfury
    Posted March 26, 2012 at 12:25 am | Permalink

    Lissana you bring up a good point to illustrate the not so great implementation of HotW because of the reduced tool subset..however, i’m curious to see how the talent actually works, and whether it acheives its intended intention with the current toolset.

    if it doesn’t , I would be all for allowing HotW to allow the use of those other abilities like lifebloom on moonkin or at least push for them to not so severely restrict the base abilities per spec like they have done.

    it did seem odd to finally open up the druid class to be able to use its other forms/roles but then heavily restrict all those base abilities what actually would be useful now.

    it needs work, but i wouldn’t like to see it removed. i like the tier 6 , however i won’t object to it appearing in an earlier tier for something new or it becoming baseline. I definitely wnat it there though, because I see many uses for it in both pvp and pvE.

    i’m curious to see some beta raids, and see this ability in action.

    • Lissanna
      Posted March 26, 2012 at 8:50 am | Permalink

      I have to be harsh on these talents because if I wait until after we’re level 90 and raiding, it will be too late to get these fixed before launch. I have to pounce early and hard on things that aren’t designed to fit with our new MoP playstyle. HOTW would have worked fine in Cataclysm, but it doesn’t work as well with the MoP changes, and putting a bunch of hybrid talents as our level 90 talents doesn’t allow that component to be optional (where the vast majority of druids stay in one form and just do one overly focused thing in PvE, and gain no real utility from HOTW or Dream of Cenarius or things like it). Hybrid utility could be useful, but only if it isn’t something you have to pay a level 90 talent for.

      I was right about resto druids needing a direct heal (healing shrooms) back in Beta for Cataclysm, and we’re not getting healing shrooms until MoP. While there are individual differences in playstyles and roles, I’m trying my best to spend time figuring out how each of the druid specs plays in MOP and how the talents really interact with our existing toolsets. Symbiosis makes that a lot harder, but symbiosis is also a much better candidate for hybrid options than having Heart of the Wild as a talent.

  15. wouter
    Posted March 26, 2012 at 3:21 am | Permalink

    they should make hearth of the wild a passive.(at first I thought it actually was :( ) Then it might have a situational use and it would be ok for pvp. if they would make the cooldown of it like 1 minute and make it last about 15 seconds I see it being usefull on some bosses. If you need someone to taunt and tank for a few seconds you could get a moonkin or feral to do that if they would improve it.

    • Stupidhero
      Posted March 26, 2012 at 4:56 am | Permalink

      For a taunt the symbiosis provided Growl is the way to go – way better andeasier to use, without the huge costs associated with HotW.

    • Starfury
      Posted March 26, 2012 at 4:02 pm | Permalink

      The whole point about hotw is for it to be a cooldown. one that would allow you for a short period in theory to really step into the shoes of the role that urgently needs to be filled. The parrallel to combat rez is apt, but i disagree it is redundant because of that. However the accusation that it would not be sufficient because of the reduced toolset does hold more merit, but without seeing it in action in the situaitons for pvE it can be used in, it is impossible to tell, so Liss could be wrong on that one.

      And whiles we may debate the usefulness or relevance of it in pvE, it is very valuable for pvp, lets not forget that. and that alone warrants hotw/GoC earning a place on the druid spell book, wether as talent (any tier) or a baseline ability.

      The strongest opposition to this has come from the moonkin community, because of the fact that MoP hasn’t changed the moonkin playstyle much at all, and then you see talents like HotW and feel disappinted bbecause the dps role of damage dealing could have used something exciitng in that tier, yet is vastly un-improved save for tidying up eclipse for the entire expansion.

      it’s a fair point, but not one that justifies removing HotW/GoC like some have asked, because those along with the new base abilities have brought good addition to the druid class, they actually make the druid feel like a class rather than 4 separate classes, not to mention they are a new toy, albeit they allow the druid to be closer to what it was originaliy meant to be since patch 1.4 when you could no longer switch armor in combat.

      My verdict sis that it needs tidying up and improvement
      I’m not going to objecct to moving it to a different tier, tier 1 kinda feels a tad lame and could have some of those abilities base, or they could make HotW a baseline ability, and GoC a mode you can enter, into.

      THe reason why the druid talents are not so role specific is because it was almost inpossible to give something that satisfied eacch role without over packing the spec… and because of that they actually ended up, for the first time since early classic, giving druids abilities that were useful to ALL druids, the price was that they didn’t help your dps or healinlg or tanking POWER – and this is what those disappointed at the new talents are disappointed over.

      However my point is, if it is the playstyle improvemnt your notnecessailry concerned with as muuch as what your raw output is like, then your fear is misplaced. There is no more hybrid tax for dps specs of hybrid classes, GC in a watercooler told the community that MoP will finally see that die completly, so your dps would be made to match the other specs even if they have 4 out 6 talents that relate to their role. But bear in mind, if you look at the talent s for MoP most are actually uitlity for many classes and few acutally ahve lots of tiers that specifically help their role power.

      If you are concerned like i am, that the loack of role-related talents has come at the cost of making a more interesting and further developed playstyles, then you have a point, and i feel it too, I was hping moonkin palystyle will get sort of like a combination of metamorphosis and soulburn or at least a new exciting DoT now that insect swarm for eclipse balance purposes no longer does damage. However, tier 6 is very necessary for the class as a whole, and i think they should have added more new things to spec abilities to spice up the game play, and i would have been fine with the current talents.

      i’m looking forward to a druid i can be versatile with in pvp, and use what i have in pvE, lots of tools to help me reduce damage, hlep out others etc, just a shame that my actual dps role is so slightly unchanged and i would probably have to wait for gamve version 6.0 for that. however what is coming in 5.0 is the missing link in teh druid, that it has long long needed, even if most newer players to the spec don’t realize it. 6.0 should see some really decent playstyle improvements as i can’t see any o other major aspect of teh druid class left to include or figure out, it should all be about improvemnt from here on, lets just hope they have an imagination.

      AFter 7-8 years of following blizzard, i know that even though this is beta, it is far far too late to do anything rradically interesting to our playstyle now, they’ve been working on ists for over a year now, they had talent and class mechanics fleshed out to death and such over the meetings carried out last year, the only changes would be slight.

      if they take out HotW and taht tier, we will not get the level changing abilities you’ve been hoping for like the warlock is getting. too late for that sadly. Just enjoy what we have, it’s not that bad, and it will explore aother facets to the class that were previously locked up, that plus symbiosis is probably as much change as they wanted to give us.

      Now we could persusade them to make syimbiosis including some damage dealing abilities, or develop it further into a more intereting mechanic, like you can regulate the strength of the bond, share more than one ability, or like alchemists can have one guardian and battle elixir you can share one utility and dmage one etc, it has a lot of room for improvemnt..but then so does mushrooms, and all we have is wild mushrrom bloom for now.

  16. Posted March 26, 2012 at 4:09 pm | Permalink

    Heart of the Wild for Restos has its uses even in Dragon Soul.
    For H Ultraxion, the raid will benefit from a Resto DPSing the first 45 seconds when the incoming damage is a joke. Spine, Hagara.. any fight that has periods of healing inactivity.. especially if there is an enrage timer involved.

  17. Starfury
    Posted March 26, 2012 at 4:18 pm | Permalink

    i will also add this, some classes got more stuff for their role in their talents, because thehy were pretty thin on the ground inf their spec and class abilities, you may not have noticed that at all, i play a mage also, and i do not envy that more of their talents are dps related than the druids’ – they skill set is thin and blizzard are tyring to make pure dps classess more compelling and varied per spec.. as for the warlock they gave it everything, , it’s their pet class – but then they’ve overpowered that spec since Mike Mohriane apologised in 1.3 for how badly that class was designed, and becaue of its relative over poweredness, the very type of people that play it are those that want power,or a powerful class, so when the DK came out in wrath, the warlock numbers were hit the hardest, and they feel this justifies the massive remake they got AGAIN for the 4th expansion in a row.

    BLIZZARD do you know i really don’t like playing a class that idolizes demons no matter how cool the playstyle is, it’s been the coolest playstyle since TBC, and most of classic after 1.4 had it as the most powerful class, it’s what the lock represents that is responsible for it’s low numbers, i just hope they’d focus more time on druids and paladins or priests instead.. NOT hunters…we don’t need more gold farmers.

    I digress, apologies. tohse clases needed that, and the druid ned the universal talents it got becuase it had NO abilities taht were actually being used for active comnbat by all specs, melee and casting were almost compltely segregated, they might as well have been 2 different classes, and well once you picked your role, and went to your form you never left it, – and while they want you to be in your role, it was never meant to be the ONLY thing useful to you.

    i see this HotW /GoC a great way of your role not being impeded while giving you an opportunitiiy when needed to use your oother class abilities, it will be fun and i can’t wait to try it, even though it is something that wont be used every fight, another indication taht your role isn’t diminsihed because of it, but hey, you’d love it when your salll ability has the power to save your friends and well when succh scenarios occur, you wouldn’t mind loosing 45 secs odf dps or healing or tanking to do so.

    now what we should focus on is that now we are getting it, let it be good.

  18. Sabthalion
    Posted March 28, 2012 at 12:30 pm | Permalink

    I think that something like that http://mop-talent-grid-maker.appspot.com/talentgridmaker?theAction=view&gridId=86002 is more suitable for us.

  19. Orrak
    Posted March 31, 2012 at 1:26 pm | Permalink

    Hopefully now that one of the Big druids is making a stink about it they’ll finally start to listen to what we’ve been saying for the last 6 months.

    Graylo raised an interesting point, and it made me realize that the issues we have with our talent tree are symptomatic of a larger problem. The druid class design for MoP lacks innovation, or really any kind of meaningful change. None of the talents will change the way you play your druid, or really even have any impact on how you perform your primary role, except for tier 4 which is potentially a minor mechanical change to your main potency cooldown, Virtually all of the abilites are things we already had (typhoon, FoN, Bash, charge, disentaglement, etc) or are very generic utility spells that are strewn all over the various classes (disorienting roar, faerie swarm, cenarion ward).

    It could be argued that druids are in a pretty good place for a design perspective right now, and that change for changes sake isn’t usually a good thing. I’d push back against that pretty hard, particularly in the case of resto but thats not the point. In a game as old as WoW its vitally important that the classes evolve to keep them feeling fresh, stagnation is absolutely killer.Look at where the classes are now compared to where they were when Wrath launched, and from there to how they were in Vanilla. We’ve gone from a game with less than a dozen viable specs to more than thirty. A game with three resource systems, two one in which nearly every class has a unique resource system, some with two and warlocks who now have three.

    Its impossible to look at class design in a vacuum. ‘Sure none of my toys are broken but look at all the shiny new things timmy got for Christmas.’ Its hard to get excited about skills like disentaglement, or whatever our version of desperate prayer is called, when you look at the spells blizzards come up with for the other classes. Divine star, Halo, and Cascade are radically different abilities that we’ve never seen anything like before. The warlock’s Tome of Sacrifice radically alters a base mechanic of their class ( they no longer have to use pets), Death Knights get the frakking Lich King’s abilites!! Taken in view with the whole the druid MoP design suffers from a staggering lack of ‘newness.’ Symbiosis as our new class ability encapsulates this problem perfectly: its new for us, but its not new. Its functional, but its not fun.

    /rant

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