MOP Feedback: Crowd Control Tiers

This is part 2 in my series of MoP talent feedback. See part 1 on the level 90 talents here. For today’s post, I want to talk about the two crowd control tiers in the new MoP talent calculators. These are our level 45 and 75 talents. This is written from the perspective of Resto & Balance, where I mostly do PvE, so I know that some of the things are potentially better for feral druids or have PvP uses I’m not aware of. That said, lets see what we have.

Typhoon (level 45)

  • Typhoon is a knockback that also has a daze attached, which slows the target’s movement speed. This has been a balance ability for quite some time, and it got a significant facelift for MoP. It has a new graphic, and they fixed some of the bugs associated with it. However, it no longer does damage to your foes when you knock them back.
  • Uses: Moonkin have used this ability pretty regularly in PvP, and in some fights it has been useful in PvE for controlling mobs when we need knockbacks or slows.
  • Feedback: This ability is largely fine, though I think they could have left the damage component on it, since the relatively small amount of splash damage wasn’t largely overpowered on Live. This is a pretty obvious choice for caster druids for either PvP or PvE, since we largely want to make things go away from us (this would be slightly less helpful for PvP feral druids who like being up close & personal with things, but it could have uses in PvE for boss fights requiring knockbacks even for feral or guardian).

Mass Entanglement (level 45)

  • This is an AOE root, where you root one person and then it will bounce to nearby people. I haven’t been able to test this mechanic very easily in-game because it doesn’t like bouncing to nearby training dummies that easily.
  • Uses: In PvP, the use of an AOE root would be any time we use roots now. However, roots are pretty fragile, and this AOE root isn’t any stronger than our normal roots are, so it still breaks on damage (whereas the slowing effect from Typhoon doesn’t break on damage).  I’m not overall impressed with this, but it would be useful for PvP in any situation where you had to use an AOE root on things, and that would be really encounter-specific.
  • Feedback: Compared to typhoon’s 20 second cooldown, the 2 minute cooldown on Mass Entanglement is going to make it considerably worse than typhoon for moonkin & resto druids, who will be more easily able to control things with typhoon. It may work out better for feral druids who are more likely going to want to hold things in place to nom their faces. For resto & moonkin druids, our single-target roots along with Nature’s Grasp should provide enough root options (especially if they end up sharing diminishing returns in PvP with our single-target roots).

Faerie Swarm (level 45)

  • Faerie Swarm adds a single-target slowing effect to Faerie Fire.
  • Uses: For PVE, I honestly think Typhoon is going to be a better option than Faerie Swarm for either resto or moonkin. This is possibly more useful for feral druids, but they have a glyph that allows mangle to slow their targets, so I’m not really sure why Faerie Fire should have a slow attached to it at all. I’m at a loss for uses on this one. Moonkin have a 50% slow attached to the shroom detonate, and typhoon is a better PvP effect for resto druids overall.
  • Feedback: This ability should really get turned into a glyph instead of being a talent. I mean, feral druids can already glyph into having mangle slow targets. Moonkin already get an AOE slow from shrooms or glyphing hurricane to apply a slowing effect (and Ursol’s Vortex is basically an AOE slow with a deathgrip attached and highly superior in it’s own way). We have enough sources of slows that The glyph that gives a silencing effect to Faerie Fire would honestly make a better talent (or maybe if the talent applied BOTH the silence and the slow, it would be better). This should probably just be replaced with something more compelling. This wins for like most boring talent ever.

Ursol’s Vortex (level 75)

  • Ursol’s Vortex actually has a different tooltip in-game than what it says on the talent calculator, which ends up describing how the mechanic works a little better. You can cast it up to 30 yards away. In that spot you select, it places a vortex on the ground. For all targets within 8 yards of that point, the targets are slowed by 50%. The first time the target leaves the vortex, they are pulled back into the center of the vortex.
  • Uses: This is going to be pretty handy in PvP for keeping people off you, especially when combined with Typhoon (ie. knock them back, then vortex them in place). It’s more durable than the AOE roots from the level 45 talents and is more effective at keeping people off you than the AOE roots is. So, this is really the most obvious go-to choice for caster druids in MoP for crowd controlling things that melee. Obviously, casters can still cast from the vortex (though for moonkin, vortex + solar beam could be a lot of fun).
  • Feedback: This ability is awesome, and amazingly better than anything else on the level 75 tier, due to it being a really new and interesting mechanic. It is nice for caster druids to keep things away from us, and helpful for melee/tank druids to keep things close to them.

Disorienting Roar (level 75)

  • This ability dazes all targets within 10 yards of you for 3 seconds. Any damage done to the target breaks the disorient effect.
  • Uses: Compared to our other CC options, this has pretty limited use. The only bonus with a disorient versus Ursol’s Vortex is that you can disorient casters (whereas casters won’t be interrupted by Ursol’s Vortex). However,
  • Feedback:It’s really a boring & flavorless CC talent that seems to have really limited uses. If this did damage or something, then maybe it would be a worthwhile talent. I’m mostly just going to pick up Ursol’s Vortex and forget that Roar exists unless there is some sort of gimmick fight that requires me to have it. Compared to the type of talents other classes have, this really has no business in our talent trees at all. Blizzard could do better.

Mighty Bash (level 75)

  • This is a stun that lasts for 5 seconds and requires you to be in melee range of the target.
  • Uses: Honestly, for caster druids, since this requires your target to be in melee range, it has very limited uses. You could use it any time you currently use bear form’s bash  (*crickets*), or when you were in melee range  and would have liked to use bear form’s bash but didn’t want to go into bear form (*crickets*).
  • Feedback: If they are going to keep this talent, you  need to be able to stun things up to 15 or 30 yards away from you. The melee-range requirement makes Ursol’s Vortex automatically a far superior talent. Otherwise, we’re just spending a talent point on an ability we’ve had baseline for the entire time the game has been live, and that’s actually pretty extremely lame. Bear Hug would have made a better talent than bash, just because at least then it would have been mildly new & interesting.

Overall assessment: We really only have 3 worthwhile CC talents (Mass Enganglement, Ursol’s Vortex, and Typhoon). Using both Ursol’s Vortex and Typhoon seems like it could be really fun for solo leveling or PvP. Crowd Control in general has limited uses in PvE raiding, since you can’t CC bosses (you can only CC adds on gimmick boss fights that have adds that need to be controlled). I’d actually prefer if they just had one crowd control tier with Entanglement, Vortex, and Typhoon as the three talents. Then, they could leave Bash as a baseline bear ability, and come up with a new exciting talent tier instead of stale CC talents. I know I would be giving up the Vortex + Typhoon combo, but I’m pretty sure that just about any new exciting talents they could give us in place of having two crowd control tiers could be better. None of the other classes are stuck with two ultra boring talent tiers dedicated to crowd control abilities with no healing or damage attached to them at all. If we end up with two CC tiers, I’ll just take Typhoon and Ursol’s vortex and forget that the other talents exist at all. That’s really spending 1/3rd of our talents on things that have a very clear winner and no real interesting variety. It would be better to have one CC tier and allow druids to pick up other class’ CC abilities through Symbiosis if we really ended up needing more control.

38 Comments

  1. Stupidhero
    Posted April 1, 2012 at 6:50 pm | Permalink

    It’s nice to see that your conclusion is mostly the same I came to. The only difference is that I would turn Mighty Bash into a non-Guardian ability, cause guardians have the superior bear hug already.

    Yet, given the complete mess our talent tree is, I’m only halfway trough (still missing tier 60 and 90), and I’m already at 1600 words. Once I’m finished with the remaining tiers the post will be up on the EU boards.

    It’s just that it get’s more and more depressing actually putting more thought into the talents, and how they will play out, only to realize that they are indeed worse than I’d ever imagine them to be…

    Of course that won’t adress the lack of glyphs for balance, the weird glyphs for resto (LB is just swiftmend all over again), our odd combat rezz (the other rezzes got buffed), and the rotation mess for balance (= boring as hell) and resto(= fighting the GCD even more than currently).

    Well – at least we’ve a long way to go before MoP will be released. We just need to hope for the best :>

    • Lissanna
      Posted April 1, 2012 at 7:00 pm | Permalink

      I’m basically doing separate posts for each tier, except that I consider the two CC tiers to be the same. lol. There is really a lot to cover, so I figure doing the feedback in chunks will work better than having super long posts or posts that don’t have any real meat.

  2. Zie
    Posted April 1, 2012 at 7:13 pm | Permalink

    I find these two tiers severely dissapointing, mostly because I don’t pvp, and thats where i see things like typhoon and the vortex being really useful for.

    If the druid issue was not enough forms of CC, i wish they just gave something like vortex baseline for all druids, and come up with something better for that tier of talents.

    I think i’m getting more worried about blizzard not paying attention to the druids concerns again for this expansion. Will have to just wait and see if there are any changes between now and pre launch. Hopefully by then, theres enough lvl 90 data to get some good constructive feedback that is hopefully listened to haha.

  3. maven
    Posted April 1, 2012 at 7:25 pm | Permalink

    Yep.
    For feral PVP I like mighty bash.
    Actually, for resto PVP I also like mighty bash for arenas. For BGs it is vastly inferior.

    But having PVPed in all 3 specs (and raided in all 4) I believe that except for very specific boss encounters I will be using Typhoon + Ursols Vortex

  4. wouter
    Posted April 2, 2012 at 4:55 am | Permalink

    I think I would pick Disorienting Roar over Ursol’s Vortex for resto pvp. It’s on a low cooldown and it can hit multiple targets which makes it king when you have 2 melees on you. If you get stunned when you pop your Ursol’s Vortex it will not save your life. I do agree that 3 seconds is a bit short tho, especially if you compare it to psychic scream which is 8 seconds. Faerie swarm might be nice for kiting if you have a partner who is either melee or has no slow, but I do think typhoon will be better for any arena where you can stand on a ledge.

    • Lissanna
      Posted April 2, 2012 at 12:00 pm | Permalink

      Ursol’s Vortex is an AOE that effects any targets in it’s radius. Disorienting roar is automatically centered on you, but you can vortex people regardless of where they are standing. Typhoon will be used to get people off your back if you can have both Vortex and Typhoon. The short duration of disorienting roar (and the fact it breaks on damage) just makes it a really weak talent.

      Remember that talents need to be desirable for all 4 specializations for both PvP and PvE. One or two specs having a use for it in PvP-only doesn’t make a good MoP talent when we all have to share. Most druid specs have better sources of slows compared to Faerie Swarm. You also get to keep Nature’s Grasp, roots, and Cyclone in your CC arsenal baseline for all specs.

  5. Berdache
    Posted April 2, 2012 at 8:01 am | Permalink

    I can see uses for Faerie Swarm if we end up having to kiting an add around but other classes (like hunters) can do it with a baseline ability.

    • Azrael
      Posted April 14, 2012 at 8:57 am | Permalink

      After playing around with it as Balance in the Valley of the four Winds, i have to say Fairie Swarm feels a lot more usefull than Typhoon for solo stuff. It only hits the target you want to, it has slightly more range, longer duration(Though having a timer for it would be nice, as the slow only lasts 15s out of the 5min) and you don’t have to be looking at your target to use it.

      I also find myself using it far more regularly than i did with Typhoon, both because it’s more convenient and doesn’t have a cooldown.

  6. Posted April 2, 2012 at 11:26 am | Permalink

    I would not take Faerie Swarm as a bear (Dagnabit I am a bear not a ‘guardian’). FFF is our only ranged threat move other than taunt. I often use it for picking up threat on more than one target as they come at me or for ranged pulling. In both cases I don’t want the target slowed. If I want to pull something but fight it near where it is standing I use charge. If I want to pull it back to where I am I use FFF. Slowing them with FS would leave too much time for DPS or healers to pull the target off me before it gets in melee range.
    I also use FFF after a taunt to give myself more of a threat buffer on a target I am trying to relocate. If I want it to come all the way to where I am standing without healers or DPS pulling off me I taunt and then FFF. If no one else tags it this usually gets it where I want it. If not another FFF or taunt might do it. The slow effect would screw all that that up.
    This is a real shame. I would love a ranged slow. Bears have so few ranged options any improvement would be nice. Unfortunately this is actually reducing our options at range, not increasing them.

    • Lissanna
      Posted April 2, 2012 at 11:50 am | Permalink

      It’s why the silence glyph for FF is actually quite nice – because it gives you a ranged pull for casters. Maybe the silence should just be the talent and not the slow, to free up a glyph slot for you. :)

      Ursol’s Vortex and Typhoon end up being better abilities for kiting and slowing targets compared to using Faerie Fire with Faerie Swarm to do essentially the same job. At least with vortex and typhoon, you get new buttons instead of re-purposing and existing ability.

      • Berdache
        Posted April 2, 2012 at 1:26 pm | Permalink

        I do think Ursol’s Vortex and Typhoon are better choises but you cant use them to dependably kite as you cant spam them. We can use the mushrooms but it will be harder going.

    • Starfury
      Posted April 4, 2012 at 4:16 pm | Permalink

      Growl is 30rd range isn’t it, so you don’t really need FFF to taunt , not really so it could slow. People seem to underestimate the value of a castable slow, especially when you’re being trained,, not to mention ALL the trouble we’ve had with Typhoon not quite knocking back prperly melee on us, an instant slow is always useful for a moonkin. Whether it is better than Typhoon ..unless they’ve fixed the bug, i’d say largely for pvp, yes, but it depends on the sitaution, some BGs you are likely to prefer Typhoon, but Arenas more likely FS … it would depend, and the good thing is you can switch.

      Disorientating row may not be as cool or fun as vortex, but, anyone who’s ever found mass stun, mass fear /psychic scream useful will find it useful, it’s for when people are on top of you, too many and you need to get out or a break. Vortex has its uses, but i won’t say Disorientating Roar deserves to go, because invraibly you might find it more useful in some scenarios, especially if they tend to go for you.

      Disorientate, displacer beast , prowl or travel form and run. it has its uses.. i see typhoon + uvortex a push them away from me type ability, while FS a don’t get near me and DR – ow you’re here, must escape..

      you might not really need DR if you have taken dispalcer beast, this is given that dispalcer beast lets you stealth, it’s bugged on beta atm, but if you picked up wild charge, you might really appreciate disorientating roar to get out of focused attacks.

      And Mighty Bash may be the weakest of them all for moonkin/resto, but a stun is really handy, especially one that doens’t immobilize you. true, we need it to be ranged, but a feral i think would find a 3rd stun very very powerful in the control fight, for interrupts etc, enough to forsake vortex or roar for. ALso moonkins who like control, i may want to be as far away from a melee as possible, but not necessarily a mage, and again sometimes in pvE i’m on interrupt duty in my balnace spec, so it would be useful.it’s useable in all forms too Mighty bash, no more 3 GCDs wasted on its use.

  7. sound
    Posted April 2, 2012 at 2:50 pm | Permalink

    They aren’t terrible concepts, just terribly implemented.

    In order to compete with Typhoon:

    Mass Entanglement needs to have a shorter cooldown, significantly shorter. (30-45 secs) The premise for this relies on the argument that entangling roots are fragile and a weak form of CC.

    Faerie Swarm is good. It is very good. I choose Typhoon because the knockback has become pivotal to Moonkin PVP. I am a little upset that I am having to talent into both Typhoon and Bash, both are tools that are currently staples of a PVP Moonkin. So, while Faerie Swarm is a good talent, I feel like I have no choice but to select Typhoon. Maybe Typhoon should really be a defining ability learned at x level for the Balance specialization.

    In order for the second tier to compete with Ursol’s Vortex:

    Disorientating Roar needs a longer duration of about 6 secs and it needs to break only on direct damage. It shouldn’t break on DoTs or bleeds (think Dragon’s Breath). The reasoning here is that compared to Vortex, Roar requires melee range and grants a significantly weaker effect. In terms of functionality, Vortex allows for creative gameplay whereas the current version of Roar is limited in scope, mainly functioning as a defensive maneuver.

    Mighty Bash is just Improved Bash. This talent is similar to Faerie Swarm in that it is a good, safe, and practical talent but also very boring (not a new, fancy mechanic) and limited to a single-target effect. If you notice, all the other talents in question are AoE-based forms of crowd control.

    So if I could re-arrange these two tiers I would do the following:

    Remove Typhoon. It belongs to Balance as a spell that is automatically learned.

    Tier 1: Single-Target CC
    Mighty Bash vs Faerie Swarm vs (New, maybe a spell that fortifies entangling roots)

    Tier 2: AoE CC
    Demoralizing Roar vs Ursol’s Vortex vs Mass Entanglement

    • Lissanna
      Posted April 2, 2012 at 5:15 pm | Permalink

      that still leaves our talent trees super boring, since other classes still get way more exciting things than the current set of lazy CC talents we have to choose from.

      Most of the other classes only have one talent tier dedicated to crowd control abilities (OR in some places, they have CC abilities that also do damage, heal, increase movement speed, or have some other sort of additional interesting mechanics attached). Instead of two tiers of really boring crowd control utility, they may have talent tiers that mix various types of utility options to allow for more choice. For druids, having two talent tiers that do nothing but crowd control (and in some cases, have really boring and flavorless talents mixed in) ends up making the talent trees feel pretty pointless if you don’t PvP.

  8. Erdluf
    Posted April 2, 2012 at 3:41 pm | Permalink

    I think having an instant-cast, no-cooldown, ranged-slow in our toolbox is a nice addition. Plenty of mobs are immune to roots, but not slows. Slows have no diminishing returns in PvP, so they are also strong there. We can make life much tougher for non-druid flag carriers.

    Many dungeon/raid encounters have strongly encouraged kiting. We’ve never had the tools for it, so we haven’t worried about it too much. Now we have the option to slow.

    • Lissanna
      Posted April 2, 2012 at 5:14 pm | Permalink

      Honestly, the Faerie Fire slow makes way more sense as a glyph than as one of our talents, because it’s A) Only interesting to some of the specs, and B) only interesting in some PvP encounters or a very limited set of gimmick PvE fights in 10-mans if other people don’t have redundant abilities.

  9. Lucrece
    Posted April 2, 2012 at 6:11 pm | Permalink

    This is where PvP and PvE clash. Typhoon is regarded as a gimp thunderstorm in PvP; it’s knockback is negligible and will hardly keep something like a rogue or death knight off you.

    There is no doubt people will take FF over the other skills, because a snare that helps peel and make it harder for opponents to LoS is infinitely more useful than a slight knockback with a short daze.

    Mass Entanglement is crap nobody will take. A water elemental’s freeze with a way longer cooldown, no shatter synergy, and share cd with Nature’s Grasp and your normal roots. It also affects melee mostly, which make a minority of the toons in a game. Even then, rogues and death knights have viable ranged options now.

    Faerie Fire should have a snare baseline because it’s of limited use to caster druids to begin with, since the armor debuff is of no use to them. You are paying a talent tier for an ability that’s a frost shock with no substantial damage component, which shamans get baseline. All other casters get a baseline snare.

    Ursol’s Vortex is crappy in PvP. Blink, AMS, Shadowstep, Vanish, CloS, Portal, Charge, Heroic Leap, Deathgrip all bypass its functionality with ease. Shamans will use ghost wolf form to negate the snare so they will be out of the vortex before it pulls them back in.

    Disorienting Roar is a peel/CC like Psychic Scream, except it cannot be cleansed by anything except a trinket. It’s extremely potent as an offensive and defensive tool, although if you want to focus offensively, Bash might be good if it got turned into a ranged stun.

    What annoys me with druids is that they took a bunch of key skills from us, and said it was OK because they took from others too. That’s an invalid point because druids already had less of a toolkit than ther classes, particularly in the CC/survival department in PvP, so taking from us cripples us more than the other classes. They cannot treat us as if we are on the same footing, because we are not and doing so will just keep the status quo of the weakest caster in PvP.

    I also want to point out, which I don’t think you realize as you don’t PvP, just how unwieldy using mushrooms for PvP is. The snare from fungal growth has a delay from the damage portion, and the radius is small enough that opponents often exit it before they are snared. Mushrooms are REALLY BAD in PvP, even if they’re great aoe on PvE.

    I also hope they have something for us now that they nerfed multidotting. After the first tier of raiding in Cataclysm, with the starsurge and Moonfury nerfs, Moonkins were only really good at multidotting/AoE; their single target was among the worst of the bunch, and their mobile damage was bad since half of their rotation (starfire) was impractical to cast in movement phases due to a long cast time. Lunar Shower is not that good either. They need to revert the Starsurge nerf.

  10. sound
    Posted April 2, 2012 at 8:44 pm | Permalink

    I have to agree with Lucrece. It is clear Lissana that your point of view is limited to PVE, often ignoring the PVP side of Moonkins whereas I mainly focus on the PVP implications of any change. I feel that PVE is easy and boring enough that any change to the talents (whether it is cc or damage) will always balance itself out by any number of simple changes (increase damage of this ability, decrease cooldown, etc). Yet when it comes to PVP, simply increasing the damage of an ability isn’t enough. We need tools like a snare, and a stun, a silence, etc to be able to compete with other casters. Right now, I need the options those 2 CC tiers offer and I am upset that I will most likely have to choose Typhoon and Bash, completely ignoring the badly needed Faerie Swarm (ranged slow) and Disorientating Roar (aoe self-peel).

    • Stupidhero
      Posted April 3, 2012 at 4:27 am | Permalink

      So it’s fine to have a talent, which is useful for but one (maybe two) specs in only one part of the game? That’s what spec abilities are for. Talent’s shouldn’t fix the shortcomings of a single spec at the cost of useful talents for three other specs in half of the game.

    • Berdache
      Posted April 3, 2012 at 7:36 am | Permalink

      She was very clear that was was coming at this from a PVE perspective.

      I think one of my main concerns is that several of our Tier choises make no difference in the majority of pve boss encounters and most of them make little effect on our Dps. So in many cases it may not really matter what we pick.

      For PVP its a different matter and they provide us all sorts of utility, survival and CC. The choises here are a lot more interesting and difficult to make.

  11. Lissanna
    Posted April 3, 2012 at 8:00 am | Permalink

    Guys, I said that I don’t PvP at the very top of the thread in the first place. I don’t pretend to speak for all druids, and outlined my perspective limitations in the first paragraph. I’ve also suggested in several places that they could make the ranged snare into a glyph that would still give moonkin the option of having it for PvP. They also fixed a lot of the problems Typhoon originally had. Typhoon v2.0 isn’t the same typhoon you had before (the knockback is more instant, people can’t just run thru you to escape the knockback, etc).

    Pretty much any “utility” talent that has survived thus far has uses for at least one of our four specs in PvP. However, not every utility talent has uses for PvE or for the other specs. Blizzard needs to address PvP short-comings by fixing individual specs – not making one spec reliant on one talent while all other specs ignore that one talent and only has 1 or 2 viable choices in a tier. All talents need to be good for all (or most) specs in all (or most) situations. If that doesn’t hold, then the talent is bad. Having two crowd control tiers that do nothing but CC pretty much mean that the talent tree is doomed to not actually being useful to all specs in all situations, which is a design flaw of the talent tree alone.

    It would be okay if every class wasted 2 talents on CC abilities with no other utility, but they don’t. It feels more like they ran out of ideas for us than anything else.

  12. Stupidhero
    Posted April 3, 2012 at 1:22 pm | Permalink

    Just finished my take on druid talents:

    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/3636534218

    The part on our 45/75 looks quite similars to yours I guess.

    • Akthalion
      Posted April 3, 2012 at 5:24 pm | Permalink

      Very interesting feedback! Someone should reference it on the US Beta Forums for additional discussion XD.

      I would add that Incarnation should be the fun talent of the Tier. SotF seems like the constant and steady performance increase (although boring) while FoN is kinda burst/utility.

      Incarnation should be the thing that makes Moonkin Form meaningful and fun in regards to mechanics. Something that changes your spell mechanics that increases performance in certain conditions like Tree of Life, such as casting on the move, or making SFall/WM spread Moonfire, or allowing Hurricane to not be channeled with a cd, or making SS hit and additional target.

      • Lissanna
        Posted April 3, 2012 at 7:10 pm | Permalink

        I already have a druid feedback post on the beta forums that I’ve been continuing to cross-post in, so my beta feedback posts already link back here.

  13. Lucrece
    Posted April 3, 2012 at 2:36 pm | Permalink

    The problem with shifting functionality to glyphs is that it would take up the slot of the total glyphs we’d get. We could get unique balance glyphs, of which there are barely any so far according to WoWHead, but instead we’ll get functionality that should’ve been baseline.

    What’s worse, the Faerie Fire snare has diminishing returns according to Swifty. That’s just rich, considering neither Frost Shock, nor Frost mage snares, nor Curse of Exhaustion, not Mindflay have DR on their snare. So, that will make me agree thet Faerie Swarm does not deserve its place as a talent; it should be baseline.

    They can make Typhoon baseline and change Nature’s Grasp to work like Mass Entanglement. Problem solved, you’ve cleared one tier for utility. We need a mobility tier really bad anyways, so how about that freed tier be made into a mobility casting tier? Moonkin are really hurt by movement, so something could be put in to get 2-3 nukes off while moving or made instant by a cooldown.

    I was also hugely disappointed with the Moonkin charge version. It’s a shorter disengage. Why would anyone use that compared to the resto version, which teleports you all the way to an ally? Displacer Beast needs to be baseline. It’s silly that of Symbiosis, only feral and resto got survival cooldowns like Dispersion and Ice Block. Blance still gets the short end of the stick in survivability.

  14. Treeboi
    Posted April 3, 2012 at 8:45 pm | Permalink

    Ursol’s Vortex is completely useless in PvP. It’s just another root, of which we already have two. You would use it exactly the same way as your other two roots in PvP.

    Ursol’s Vortex has PvE written all over it. As an 1800 rated resto druid, I do not think a single druid of near my rating or higher will use it in PvP.

    As for bear bash, it’s still alive and kicking in resto druid arena PvP. The most common resto arena specs are 6/3/32 and 9/1/31. The former relies on Furor to power bear bash, while the latter relies on Furor to power cat Stampeding Roar, using Enrage to power the bash. It’s a fairly even split between the two specs.

    Druids who never use bear bash just have never had it done to them yet. Once you see it used against you even once, you learn to appreciate it.

    I personally think Faerie Swarm and Mighty Bash/Disorientating Roar will be the most popular PvP choices, no matter what your spec is.

    Faerie Swarm over Typhoon, because it’s a 6 second, ranged cooldown vs a 30 second melee cooldown, so there’s more situations you can use it.

    Disorientating Roar vs Mighty Bash, I see Roar used defensively by moonkins/restos and Bash used offensively by ferals. Aka, 30 second cooldown for defense, 5 second stun on offense.

  15. Lucrece
    Posted April 4, 2012 at 12:57 am | Permalink

    Roar will be attractive over Bash if only because it won’t be countered by Icebound Fortitude or Blink.

  16. Stupidhero
    Posted April 4, 2012 at 12:46 pm | Permalink

    I just stumbled upon a nice quote from GC back in December on the “new talents”:

    “Specifically, the warlock and druid trees include a lot of new talent ideas simply because we felt like those classes needed them” (http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/4055148)

    If I’m not mistaken, that was hardly the truth back then, and right now I’d say it’s the total opposite.
    Druids are probably the class with the least new ideas and the most cataclysm abilities turned into talents.

  17. Starfury
    Posted April 4, 2012 at 4:17 pm | Permalink

    People seem to underestimate the value of a castable slow, especially when you’re being trained,, not to mention ALL the trouble we’ve had with Typhoon not quite knocking back prperly melee on us, an instant slow is always useful for a moonkin. Whether it is better than Typhoon ..unless they’ve fixed the bug, i’d say largely for pvp, yes, but it depends on the sitaution, some BGs you are likely to prefer Typhoon, but Arenas more likely FS … it would depend, and the good thing is you can switch.

    Disorientating row may not be as cool or fun as vortex, but, anyone who’s ever found mass stun, mass fear /psychic scream useful will find it useful, it’s for when people are on top of you, too many and you need to get out or a break. Vortex has its uses, but i won’t say Disorientating Roar deserves to go, because invraibly you might find it more useful in some scenarios, especially if they tend to go for you.

    Disorientate, displacer beast , prowl or travel form and run. it has its uses.. i see typhoon + uvortex a push them away from me type ability, while FS a don’t get near me and DR – ow you’re here, must escape..

    you might not really need DR if you have taken dispalcer beast, this is given that dispalcer beast lets you stealth, it’s bugged on beta atm, but if you picked up wild charge, you might really appreciate disorientating roar to get out of focused attacks.

    And Mighty Bash may be the weakest of them all for moonkin/resto, but a stun is really handy, especially one that doens’t immobilize you. true, we need it to be ranged, but a feral i think would find a 3rd stun very very powerful in the control fight, for interrupts etc, enough to forsake vortex or roar for. ALso moonkins who like control, i may want to be as far away from a melee as possible, but not necessarily a mage, and again sometimes in pvE i’m on interrupt duty in my balnace spec, so it would be useful.it’s useable in all forms too Mighty bash, no more 3 GCDs wasted on its use.

  18. Starfury
    Posted April 4, 2012 at 4:34 pm | Permalink

    i wouldn’t say the talents are a total mess stupidhero, it hink they would play out surpringly well compared to just looking at them on paper. Even i who am disappointed owith the lack of dps stuff for balance find what they’ve done pretty neat albeit a tad dry for our roll.

    Also Lissana, for the spec that has moaned the most about not having enough tools, having two CCtiers i s real candy for us, . Ferals having 2 more CC abilities? oo, might be complints there, but then, FS is a ranged slow, so even if mangle slows, you have to catch em up first to do it, FS gives you an option, the other one is MAss entanglment, but that’s on a 2 min cooldown unlike the 15 sec FS.. and a feral won’t want to typhoon much unless he was running… the tier is much stronger for Balance than it is for ferals, guardians or restos. Ferals would likkely pick FS in that tier for the ranged slow, moonkin benefit from FS and typhoon a lot as i discucseed above, ME you have point if it shares DR with our normal roots, as nice as it sounds it won’t be that useful. PErsonally i think it’s cooldown should drop to 30 secs like Typhoon, then it would give pause for thought.

    ZIe, I can’t help you there, except say i hope they give a few more interesting things for dps in the spec abilities, cos whiles i am dispapinted our dps role doens’t have taht much new to it in terms of playstyle, i certainly like what we’ve got for talents. espeically tier 4 and 6. And they have paid a lot of attention to druid concerns, all the fixes for eclipse that make up the bulk of our dps role changes came out of conerns, i jsut wish they had spent as much time thinking of some coool new stuff for our dps as they did in fixing the old stuff.

    Maven, spot on, my feral would love that 3rd stun in mighty bash, espcially for Arenas, it’s a control god send, and the thing is Ursol’s vortex are tempting enough alternatives too, the good thing people keep forgetting is that you can change your talents .

    Wouter – you from Holland? Spot on dude anyway, that was what i was thinking about disorientating roar too for moonkin also, caster druids get trained on fast, Moonkin very much so, and DO might end up being more useful than UV for arenas.. Vortex is great to keep people at bay, but DR will save your life, it’s a tough one, and not clear cut.

    Liss you’re forgetting that cyclone is not native to ferals or guardians, and will ferals keep predatory swiftness for that instant cyclone, Guardians don’t have it any longer bumping up the value of FSwarm and with nurturing instincts more powerful, PS might be used for more HTs ..altho that depends on whether the ferals have specced into Disentanglement and Renewal for health regens. Plus guardians have access to Frenzied regen.

    Berdache – Fs would be great for kiting in solo pvE, i had completely forgotten about that, and the thing is you can easily switch talents remember.. so i wouldn’t be calling FS useless nearly or ask for its removal, altho i woon’t say no to an improvement.

    • Stupidhero
      Posted April 4, 2012 at 5:25 pm | Permalink

      Once you have enough experience you can easily predict how abilities will turn out once you look at them on paper, you do not need hands on experience to decide wether an ability is useful or not.

      And If it wasn’t for a lucky bug during 4.1 PTRs – which messed heavily with efflorescence – my prediction for cataclysm druid healing would’ve been spot on… that’s without even setting a single foot on new cataclysm content.

      Two tier CC’s isn’t candy. It will bring us on par to what other classes toolkit offers baseline, while other classes get actually fun and new abilities to play with. We’re always a step behind in terms of quality of life adjustements and adjustement to what other classes get.

      Just look at what warlock get, what shamans get in their tree – Even pallies who where closest to being “perfect” in blizzards eye, recieve more new ideas in two tiers, than the entire druid tree has to offer. All we get is things we should’ve had all along.

      This how it’s done for druids:
      Fixing balance/resto PvP? Let’s do that by talents – even if other classes can do fine just by their class/spec toolkit.

      This is how the adjustements are made for other classes:
      Shamans lack of utility? They get quite a lot of that as new classabilities, while also having a bunch of that in their talent tree.

      Or look at our trees this way:
      Since the previews at blizzcon, where the class which has recieved the least amount of changes.
      And it’s not that our tree was any better than that of other classes back then …

      • Lissanna
        Posted April 6, 2012 at 3:46 pm | Permalink

        Having to use talents to pull yourself up to the level of other classes BEFORE their talents still leaves other classes ahead of us. Always being an expansion behind in design is something we just shouldn’t accept. If they need to give us more CC abilities baseline to be effective in PvP, then we should ask for them to be baseline.

  19. Starfury
    Posted April 5, 2012 at 12:23 pm | Permalink

    as for warlocks i give up on them, they get the cream of the crop of everything, the bias is ludicrous, n o one likes playing demon loving class, well some do, but that is why the warlock is not popular. it would be if the warlock was less close to Satan and more close to Harry Potter in the minds of most players.. but then you could say every game needs a warlock class.

    Saying that, the warlock has got the best mecahnics of everything, as a balance druid you can’t ehlp but watch soulburn and metamorphosis and grow green with envy because they are exactly what moonkin form should have been like instead of some passive buff. WE got our fancy new mechanic in wotlk, bear in mind it’s been our only real update since ever, and we’re still just fixing it 2 expansions on. While we enjoyplaying the balance druid, well i do anyway, i would really love to see it take the sort of strides they have taken with the warlock in terms of advancing it each expansions.

    saying that though, i’m sure every caster class, shadow priest, elemental shaman, all mages and balance druids are looking at the warlock green with envy. we won’t play it though.. it willg et all those DKs that swtiched from their wralocks to Dks in wrath to go back, because afterall they were seeking power weren’t they, and Locks didn’t come out of TBC stupidly OP’d like they ahve been since patch 1.3 when Mike Mohraine apologised to the wow commuunity for the bad initial design of the warlock whcih spurned furious changes EVERY patch from 1.3 right through to TBC of that class, that has also seen if have some major new implementation or reworking every expansoin. pehraps Wrath had the least impressive upgrades for the lock, but i remember it was the introduction to reislience hitting DoT damage, taht finally broke the Lock/Spriest pvp OPness in TBC, taht had them all running to play DKs.

    So i guess they’lll be back, but yeah, we are a bit jealous, espeically since we the druids are the shapeshifting masters, yet locks in metmorphosis have a sophistcation that is striikingly elegant and I can’t help but feel that yeah, they’ve stolen our thunder andgiven it to them.

    grrrr. I’m not that jealous of Shaman, i’m actually pleased for them, i think we got it good this expansion too, albeit the balance role itself didn’t get much for its pvE dpsing..but it still got much needed pvp utility and a new dimension in tier 6, you can for 45 secs if you pick HoTw, play in the shoes of a resto druid or tankin druid..which i think is very very cool.. they might need to tweak it a bit by adding some extra abilities to it, but we’ll see.

  20. Asrah
    Posted April 6, 2012 at 1:09 pm | Permalink

    First, you shouldn’t view anything from a pve aspect, since it mostly involves only your nuke spell for damage dealers and heals for healers. Thats all except a few fights, but you clearly not use most of the potentials of your class. Its very hard to broaden a class in pve direction. What can you add beside better nuke? In most cases you can’t add anything. Even if you do, you will end up with a nerf. New damage spells must share place with your current ones to keep damage mostly balanced.
    The only way to change it would be to create pve fights where you should or must use cc to survive. I can only hope it will happen in MoP and finally stops the complains of pve players. While I understand their problem, they should understand too, that its quite limited where they can be improved any further at this point. Or else, they are already much more improved than they are able to use it effectively in the game (cc immune mobs.. khmmm :S ). These talents are improvements for pve players, the problem is in the encounters that does not support them.

    Here are my opinions about these two rows:
    Faerie Swarm – I think its much better than it seems at first sight. No cd easily spammable slow. Its about the same powerful as Typhoon in one melee (or even 2, since it has no target limit). Can be dispelled but pve mobs will not, and pvp healers have an 8 sec cd now. Moonkins and Ferals have slows already, however its easier to use than shrooms and moves with the target, also Ferals can save 1 glyph slot by choosing this instead of Infected Wounds glyph.

    Mass Root – too high cd! Roots break from damage, but not in the first second. It may survive 1-2 dot ticks, and also can be used to mass cc casters if balance druids combine it with Solar Beam. With this cooldown I wouldn’t choose this. Maybe with 40 sec. Also make it last for a shorter duration against pve targets. It might be the cause why it has such a high cd. It would be op against a group that actually can be rooted. (5 man dungeons, you shouldn’t be able to cc a whole group for 20 sec by yourself). Make it the same duration as pvp and decrease the cd.

    Typhoon – its good as always. Removed damage makes you able to knock a group with poly or root already present. Sad to lose that small instant aoe damage, but it works better as a cc.

    Disorienting Roar – should only break on direct damage like fire mage Dragons Breath does. It disorients all enemies around but have higher cd. They are in pair except that any damage vs direct damage part. Its a cc good against casters too. I see a chance to use it since it does not share diminish with other cc-s we have. (Symbiosis: Hammer of Justice (balance) > Disorienting Roar > Solar Beam, soo good against casters!)

    Ursol’s Vortex – very good against melee, also new and interesting. Great combo with Typhoon or Solar Beam. Fine as it is.

    Mighty Bash – nearly the same as our old Bash, but it can be used in any form and it will most likely not require you to have expertise as a caster. At least I hope it will always hit against a rogue.
    Bash – 60 sec cd, 4 sec stun, 10 rage cost, must be in bear
    Mighty Bash – 50 sec cd, 5 sec stun, no cost, can be cast in any form (you do not stun the target, Spirit of Ursoc does, so it is most likely more effective than a simple melee stun)
    I see this spell as a possilbe choice in this row in its current state.

    I don’t know about Ferals and Guardians, but for Resto and Balance, these really are great talents.

    • Lissanna
      Posted April 6, 2012 at 3:45 pm | Permalink

      what’s the point of having 1/3rd of your talents be crowd control talents if they won’t be used in PvE at all? That’s one of the things I’m suggesting is a problem with the talent designs. If you are maximally effective at your role when you pick out 1/6 talents and 1/6 glyphs, then what is the point of glyphs or talents at all? There needs to be some talents & glyphs that increase the power of your main spec in some way for the talents & glyphs to have PvE uses at all. At this point, all the classes except for druids have several talent tiers that impact their main roles in PvE encounters.

      • Asrah
        Posted April 6, 2012 at 5:28 pm | Permalink

        I think the problem is with pve not the talents. Pve should just turn into something more than a boss tax and nuking. It should involve YOUR character’s abilities instead of doing strange wasd maneuvers while dealing dps and hps. You simply cannot develop it any further like this. You have your rotation that you need to do while following the pattern of a boss. Calling an ability pvp only shouldn’t exist in the game. These are useful abilities, why can’t any of them used in a bossfight? Crap design, thats why. Try to describe what is a PVE use for a dd spec beside better nuking. The whole point of this talent redesign was to get rid of the mathematically calculated best dps schemes. Its all because pve is about that. You got bigger, you are better. If you put damage cd-s in the talent tree, it will start again. There will be a best one and all of the raiders will choose that. I bet it will be like that in our 60 row with FoN and other dmg increase abilities.
        I do not mean it as its the fault of pve players of course. Its rather a balancing problem that Blizzard avoids like this. If they only need to care about your dps, its easier than thinking about cc combinations that could be used in an encounter.

One Trackback